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January 23, 2024

John Saunders and Irv Cross (Ep. 8, 2024)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents a look back at the state of African American presence in sports broadcasting, presenting interviews recorded in 1987 with the late John Saunders and Irv Cross, pioneering sports analysts who at the time were the only African Americans on nationally televised sports programs.

July 26, 2020

Dr. Steve Perry (Ep. 34, 2020)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses the debate over how to combat racial inequalities in America’s public school system, with Dr. Steve Perry, noted educator, motivational speaker, and founder and head of the Capital Prep Schools.

Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Steve Perry [00:00:23] For me, education is a tool for social justice. It’s not an end unto itself. It’s just a strategy. And every revolution has begun the same way. Somebody went into a room and said, Yo, you know, we got to put up with this, right? And they broke it down as to why you have to put up with it. And people in the room like, you know what? It does make sense. And thus a revolution was born. That’s education. Dr. Martin Luther King said in his last book, Where Do We Go from Here? Community Chaos. He said that America does not know what to teach or how to teach. That’s Dr. King and Dr. King. So this desire that I have is really rooted in a commitment to social justice that was born out of living in poverty for the first 25 years of my life. And what that amounted to was my mother and another woman. They were on the tenants association and our public housing project. And seeing my mother had to fight for things that I didn’t understand, why she had to fight. What made me think that I needed to quote unquote, educate people. But I thought I would educate them through becoming a politician, which ultimately I found out was just not for me.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:28] Steve Perry, noted educator, motivational speaker and founder and head of Capital Prep Schools. Perry is the voice of a generation of people. Champion has been fighting for disadvantaged children and families for more than 30 years. His skills are hard fought and has been bestowed them as well. Adolescent years in Middletown, Connecticut, all the way through his graduation from an Ivy League university. On May 17, 2020, we observed the 66th anniversary of the Brown v Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas. U.S. Supreme Court decision. In a decision issued that day, Chief Justice Warren noted that in the field of public education, the doctrine of separate but equal has no place as segregated schools are inherently unequal. As a result, the court ruled that the plaintiffs were being deprived the equal protection of the law guaranteed by the 14th Amendment. Today, more than 60 years later, the debate continues. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Public Education in America with Dr. Steve Perry In Black America.

Steve Perry [00:02:41] It could be the greatest thing to ever happen to American education, period. Sadly, because we’re allowing the teachers and the teachers unions and the teachers associations and states that they say are right to work, states to not teach. Right now, in the biggest cities in the United States of America, there are overwhelmingly minority children are not being taught at all. It’s not they’re not being taught well. They’re literally not receiving any instruction. And anyone who tells you anything different is patently lying. They’re lying. So these same people are hitting with the best man. They are literally. They’ll send home what they refer to as a packet, which is the equivalent to directions from IKEA. And basically telling you to read them yourself and figure it out. That ain’t teaching. That’s not teaching at all. And if that’s teaching, then why are we have these buildings open anyway? What we need is 40, $5,000 million buildings. If that’s teaching, let’s just keep set up.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:47] As we enter the 21st century. The education of children of color in this country is still fragmented today, more than 60 years after Brown v Board of Education. The debate continue over how to combat racial inequalities in the nation’s public school system, largely based on residential patterns and differences in resources mean schools in wealthier and economically disadvantaged communities across this nation. Dr. Steve Perry has been a vanguard in the fight for equal education in this country. He is the founder and head of Capital Prep Schools, the author of six books and a respected guest on many of our network news programs. Perry offers insight to parents, children and many politicians to assist them in a better understanding of what matters in the education of our children. Recently, In Black America, I spoke with Dr. Steve Perry.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:41] Dr. Perry, with the current events that’s taking place, particularly in Minneapolis, with the killing of George Floyd and the killing also, Mark Aubrey, as a Black man living here in America and also a father, how are those two incidents affecting you?

Steve Perry [00:04:58] Last night, my son’s wife and I went out to get what I, you know, lemonade and we got back to the house. We live near the near the shore. So I said to my son, I’m about to go for a walk. And my youngest son said, I’ll go with you. I said, All right. And so when we got out the car, he said. Are we going to get shot? And as he and I walk the beach just at its core, when I say my son and I walked on the beach, that should evoke visions of placid joy arrival something good then only good notion. My son and I, both of whom had hoodies on because it was going to last night. My son kept looking over his shoulder, looking out to see who was coming to get us. Myself, about eight years old. He’s 14 years old, sophomore high school. And for him and me, it sparked a conversation about what is going on in America. And he said that I don’t oh, this sounds wrong, He said, But I look at those fires and I see beauty. He said, What else are we supposed to do? He said, I just want to live. He said, My friends just want to live. We don’t want to bother nobody. We just want to live. He said, But I’m in the neighborhood, in the suburbs, and I’m concerned about my safety. So how is it affected me? Man It’s part every day. Yesterday started with me just feeling really emotional. And this is ridiculous. You know it. It makes no sense. That when a camera because I was in 1991 when the Rodney King situation unfolded, when they tried to kill him, I remember sitting in my college dorm room. And I remember thinking, finally they caught these fools. They on tape. It’s over now. They never going to be able to do this again. I could not have been more wrong then, but to see people like that disgusting, vile murderers, police officer and the other murderous police officers that were with them in. Minneapolis. To see him looking dead at somebody with a camera phone, No one in this recording, he did nothing to alter his behavior. Nothing. He didn’t stop. He didn’t tell them to stop because he knew that he had impunity. He knew that he would not be held accountable. He lost his job. People lose their jobs so much less. He lost his job. I guarantee you, the teachers I mean, the the police union will fight for his pension. And they will sue this city. We have crossed over, ladies and gentlemen, into a very, very dark place. And what makes it dark is not that the behaviors of these victimizers have changed. Is that the people who’ve been victims for so long. Ain’t taking longer. It’s going to burn, baby, burn for a while. This one right here, they. It’s okay. Enough is enough.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:25] You’re right about that. Dr. Perry, also, I want to talk to you about we’re just past the 66th anniversary of the Brown Board of Education of Topeka. Looking at that decision, can you give a thumbnail history for those that aren’t familiar with that Supreme Court decision?

Steve Perry [00:08:46] Gladly. In short, our family, like so many of us, decided that enough was enough. They didn’t want their child to go to a substandard school, and so they sought a remedy. And Topeka, Kansas, just like so many communities today, wanted to keep. Black people enslaved. And so it refused to provide them with the opportunity to have the kind of education that their family felt like their job and job deserved. And so they sued and ultimately won. What did they win? Not really much. At the end of the day. Virtually nothing has changed as it relates to public education. You still go to the school closest to your house, unless, of course, you’re wealthy enough to buy your way out, which was the case back then. Fortunate enough to get out. Which was the case back then. Or break the law and lie your way out. Which was the case back then. So. Virtually nothing has changed. Sadly, and I say virtually nothing, because despite the fact that I’ve run charter schools and before the magnet school, they’ve always been alternate routes to education. They’ve always been that. This is not a new phenomena. It’s just that we, as is typically the case, have window dressing. Well, we believe that because there are a couple of charter schools and there really are only a couple, it’s come out. 4 million kids out of 40 million children somewhere thereabouts, don’t go to traditional schools. They go to charter schools. And then there are some magnet schools again. But most of those magnet schools are zoned. So meaning you go to the magnet school based on where you live. You can just go. So your zone is adjacent to another zone, which means potentially that your house is closer to that school than the school into which you are zone. But there’s this imaginary but very real line separating you from that school. Then you can go. So the lines that were in place are still in place. And in recent years, there are 33 states that still have secession laws, which means that there are neighborhoods because that’s what they really amount to. Mhm. That are seceding from the school district thereby creating a school district within a school district. Think of it this way. You’re on a basketball court. And at center court where you’d have jump ball. Is a neighborhood. That neighborhood calls itself another school district. The rest of the basketball court is one school district. The center court is another school district. They are succeeding now to make sure that they keep school districts white, wealthy and segregated.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:50] When did you develop this passion for education for yourself, but also for those that are being denied quality education?

Steve Perry [00:12:02] So it’s been a process, but it happened. See, for me, education is a tool for social justice. It’s not an end. Unto itself. It’s just a strategy. And every revolution has begun the same way. Somebody went into a room and said, Yo, you know, you got to put up with this, right? And they broke it down as to why you have to put up with it. And people in the room like, you know what? It does make sense. And thus a revolution was born. That’s education. Dr. Martin Luther King said in his last book, Where Do We Go From Here? Community Chaos. He said that America does not know what to teach or how to teach. That’s Dr. King is Dr. King. So this desire that I have is really rooted in a commitment to social justice that was born out of living in poverty for the first 25 years of my life. And what that amounted to was my mother and I and another woman, they were on the tennis association and our public housing project. And seeing my mother have to fight for things that I didn’t understand why she had to fight for. It made me think that I needed to, quote unquote, educate people. I thought I would educate them through becoming a politician, which ultimately I found out was just not for me. And in the interim, I thought, well, why don’t I start a program to help kids like me? Mhm. Because I had gone through one of those programs and it was an Upward Bound program. And then when I started to work in the schools, I started to see firsthand, you know, it’s like being in a room with the lights off and feel like somebody keeps hitting you. You just don’t know who it is. When I started to work in the schools, I turned the lights off. Or the lights were turned on. And as I would go to visit my kids in these schools, I would hear teachers talking about kids like dogs, and I would hear principals letting them get away with it. And I saw these people. Who I once trusted, putting kids into classes that were beneath them academically. And then when I, I, I can tell you specific, for instance, there’s a school district in Connecticut, the Windsor Public Schools, and that doesn’t mean anything to most people except for the fact that it’s said to be the second wealthiest Black suburb in America. And one would think with the with, you know, Black people doing all right, that their kids would be in the advanced placement classes or the seminar classes or the international baccalaureate classes. But you could walk through that school and you could tell the highest ranking classes by the number of white kids in the school. In a classroom. Sorry. So the greater the number of white kids, the higher the classes, the greater number of Black kids, the lower the classes. And I thought, well, damn, I could. I could do worse than this. You know, I mean, I can this bad while on my own school. And it was during that process of seeing those things happen that I started to realize that there’s nothing wrong with our kids. It’s just that they’re in a system that was designed to destroy them. So I felt I got some brothers together. And, you know, I say brothers. I mean brothers not just of color, but in the ball colors. Because I played myself initially, I put together a group of just Black people and we do nothing. And so I put together a group of people, small cultures, who are about their life, say, Yo, we got to do better than this. And and we agreed and we started our first school in Hartford. Wasn’t easy. Still anything. I was on the phone with one of the states today that we operate schools in sitting there arguing with them about. I mean, educating Black kids is hard as hell. I mean, it’s not because our kids are dumb because everybody makes so damn hard.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:55] I was going to go there. Would you, Dr. Perry, what do you think the problem is with our school systems and their attitude or lack thereof of educating people of color?

Steve Perry [00:16:11] They hate us. Oh, man. The things that other kids get away with it. To see that you are precocious are criminalizing our kids. Come on. I mean, you know, my son, last night we were walking. He said, Dad, I don’t want to believe. The things are the way that they are. He said, I want to believe. He said, I don’t support Donald Trump. He said, I just see that he’s the president. I just want to I want to believe that people are inherently good. That’s what my supporters. Your saying. Okay. I’m saying you guys are saying what they are. You can’t do it that way. I do not want you to walk around with Black eyes on. And I’m saying, us facing gentlemen. Every single city in the United States of America can list the failed schools. Every single one. What are your.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:05] I’m in Dallas, Texas, and the program is produced out of Austin, Texas. So Texas.

Steve Perry [00:17:11] Okay. So I guarantee you, if I asked you what did Raggedy Schools in Dallas or what a writing schools in Austin, if you knew what you wanted to make, you tell me, not only could you tell me. Everybody could tell me. So the question that you ask yourself is, then why on earth would you send any child to a school? You know that educating kids is because you don’t see the kids as human beings. You don’t care. And I don’t want lest anyone think that I’m talking about white people, I am not. They are Black people, Latinos, Latinas on boards of education that are selling Black people out. Fashion. You could say Jackie Robinson, don’t get it twisted. Don’t think because you got a Black mayor or a Latinas Congress person that they got your back. Alexandra Cortez Whatever. She just as much committed to the status quo as anybody else because she’s more committed to our party than to her people. Meanwhile, her parents pulled out by the school system. We know better, but we’re not doing better. And the reason we’re not doing better is because no group large enough to make an impact loves our people as people and as such. Our kids keep going to raggedy schools.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:32] If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio and speaking with Dr. Steve Perry, founder of Capital Prep Schools in Connecticut and Harlem, noted educator and motivational speaker. Dr. Perry, with the COVID 19 pandemic on us and most of our children, if not all, are being educated at home. How will this have a devastating effect, if any, or the African-American children?

Steve Perry [00:19:06] It could be the greatest thing to ever happen to American education, period. Sadly, because we’re allowing the teachers and the teachers unions and the teachers associations and states that they say are right to work states to not teach. Right now, in the biggest cities in the United States of America that are overwhelmingly minority, children are not being taught at all. It’s not they’re not being taught well. They’re literally not receiving any instruction. And anyone who tells you anything different is patently lying. They’re lying. So these same people are hitting with the bs man. They are literally. They’ll send home what they refer to as a packet, which is the equivalent to directions from IKEA. And basically telling you to read them yourself and figure it out and teach it. That’s not teaching at all. And if that’s teaching, then why are we have these buildings open anyway? What we need is 40, 50, $100 million bill. And as if that’s teaching it, let’s just keep setting up. So they’ll say, well, there’s a digital divide. Stop lying. Stop lying. If that’s your issue, then explain to me this. When you were complaining before about there, not about there being a resource gap in your school, but laptops and other forms of computation and put them in the school and had in some case some of the poorer schools have a 1 to 1 laptop program, believe it or not, where those laptops send them. All the kids say they don’t want that. What they want to do is they want to sit home and not teach. They don’t want to teach because they want to teach. They do just like you and I do. They can have on a phone call, they can put on a zoom. They do any number of things. I run schools in some of the poorest cities in America. I do an open majority. I should have access to technology. Now, they may not all have let’s say they have four kids and they may not have four laptops, so they may not have a laptop for every single child. I’ll give you that. But it doesn’t mean that there are no laptops and in many cases there may be a cell phone or two or three, because in most cases, most of the kids have a cell phone. So everything that we’re teaching can be done through a cell phone. Everything. Anything you want to learn on earth is online. So imagine, if you will. If your teachers decide that they’re just going to teach no matter where they are. I’m talking to you in Connecticut. I’m in a car. I’m not sure where you are, but we’re having a meaningful conversation. They’re not teaching. Technology is not the issue. It’s the brittle spirit, as Dave Chappelle refers to them, of adults who call themselves teachers. It is unconscionable to me that school districts like Chicago and New York and Los Angeles are going to allow children to atrophy for six months. It’s disgusting. It’s disgusting. They ought to be ashamed. Anyone who’s not teaching ought to be ashamed. And you know the difference between between teaching and not teaching. If you don’t, you shouldn’t be teaching. Teaching is you showing someone how to do something. You answering questions when they don’t understand, you providing them with support. If you’re not doing that, you are not teaching. And if you are being paid by your community to teach and you’re not teaching. Return the money. If you need time off to be with your family to take care of your kids. Ain’t nobody got a problem with that. That’s cool. If you need mental health support, I’m sure that there’s some program at your job that will allow you to do that. But if you are not taking personal or mental health days and you are being paid to teach, you have an obligation to do so. If you’re a doctor or nurse, you can’t say, well, you know. Here’s a scalpel with some sutures. Go ahead and figure it out. You can’t text your patients instructions on how to operate on themselves. You are going to do it. If teachers want to be treated like the professionals that they claim that they want to be, then you got to do it when it needs to be done. If you’re not teaching, you’re not teaching. You dont’ have to like it. But think about the rest of us who have children at home.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:38] How can parents help their children learn during this this hiatus from school.

Steve Perry [00:23:43] There’s a lot of ways. One, reach out to the school and say, You only teach my kid straight up. This is not cool. I’m paying you so you can teach. Hold them accountable to do what? You can. Identify all the parents who are out there. There’s. There’s a lot of information online. There are some online learning platforms that you can go to. I don’t know if all of them are free. Um, at our schools we are teaching and some of my teachers are doing a great job, most of which is doing a great job. Some of them are not. So they’re not giving 100%. So they won’t be here next year. But you know, they made a decision. I’m here for my kids. And so as I am, I am not just an educator. I am a father of sons who go to one of my schools. Mhm. And I’m not trying to hear your feeble spirit talking about how you. This is too stressful for you. Okay, cool. Got you. But my son still has to go on with the rest of their life. You already have your degrees, Chief. So if you can’t do the job, I can’t be mad at you for it. But you can’t expect me to pay you to do something that you’re refusing to do.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:48] So how are your teachers communicating with you alls students.

Steve Perry [00:24:52] So we do zoom. And every every classroom day starts at 8 a.m.. At 8 a.m. they begin teaching our classes are 45 minutes to an hour. Our school day goes to 3:30. At 3:30, we switch into office hours, which should be a time in which the kids go for additional support. We have daily attendance and upwards of 85%.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:18] So how are your messages different from those that are attending traditional schools?

Steve Perry [00:25:27] We look for excuses, we look for solutions. We looking for excuses. We look for solutions. These are my kids, man. Like, I don’t understand people. People. Oh, we miss our kids. Oh, we’re so sad. We get on a damn zoom in same way when you miss your auntie or uncle. Have having zoom party, zoom birthday parties having zoom retirement party reaching out to retirement centers. You miss all those people, right? You know how to you talk to your kids. It’s not cool, man. It’s not cool at all. It’s not cool. I’m not going to call somebody here all because they decided to become a teacher. We decided to do it. It’s one thing doing it is something entirely different. Think about it. In Connecticut alone, in six weeks, 430,000 people filed for unemployment. A lot of those were my kids parents. How are you going to complain about your job when you’ve got a job, man? Please.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:20] Dr. Perry, before we run out of time, what do you see the state of education, maybe 5 to 10 years from now? Are we just are in a cycle. Uh, recidivism, um, you know, doing the same thing and getting the same results?

Steve Perry [00:26:36] So. Oh, my brother, man Oh, heartbreaking. I’m working too hard for this. I lia lot of other ways to get paid in the course of the day. It got to be a lot easier than that. So my plan and my hope and my plan is to upend this education system that we have now. Prodigy wasn’t talked about the Miseducation Negro 70 years ago, 80 years ago. My hope is that this COVID will be to education in America. What Katrina was to education in New Orleans, a tragedy that was costly in terms of lives, but presented an opportunity in terms of rebirth. You don’t have to keep sending kids to failed schools. We never have to do it again. It never has to happen again. Never, Not ever. You can have Dr. Yewande. You can do both. And Stephen Hawking’s and Albert Einstein be lecturing in one classroom just by having their videos available to you.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:41] Dr. Steve Perry, noted educator, motivational speaker and founder and head of Capital Prep Schools. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as to the future In Black America programs, email us at inblackamerica@kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

July 12, 2020

Erika Rickard and Michael Meyerson (Ep. 32, 2020)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses rising unemployment and the subsequent rise in personal debt amid the Covid-19 pandemic, and how African American consumers can protect themselves, with Erika Rickard, Director of Civil Legal Modernization at The Pew Charitable Trusts. Also, a preview of next week’s program, with University of Baltimore Law School Director Michael Meyerson.

Intro Music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner.

Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Erika Rickard [00:00:25] I think there’s a lot of potential causes here. When we were examining this trend, we also noticed that during that same time when court cases were starting to increase, we also saw the increase in what’s called the debt buyer industry. So these are companies that purchased debts from banks or other original creditors, and then they pursue consumers to try to collect on those debts.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:00:47] Erika Rickard, Project Director Civil Legal Systems Modernization, The Pew Charitable Trust. From 1993 to 2013, a number of debt claims filed in civil courts across this country increased to the point where became the single largest share of civil court cases over that period. Particularly as people use civil courts less for other issues. An analysis conducted by the Pew Charitable Trust found out as a category that claims have largely one sided outcomes, raising troubling questions about legal proceedings and case disposition. Reports uncover how the court system has become a debt collectors tool or businesses suing consumers, many of whom show up in court without an attorney or don’t show up at all. As the COVID 19 pandemic continues to show the businesses that disrupt the national economy, experts expect the number of people facing burdensome debt default and collections will grow dramatically. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, How Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of These Courts. Erika Rickard with the Pew Charitable Trusts In Black America.

Erika Rickard [00:02:03] That’s an interesting question. And what that speaks to is it would be really nice to know which policies are the most effective. But unfortunately, these cases are really flying under the radar. There’s not a lot of data about what’s actually happening. So in 38 states, we don’t have any data about the number of debt collection cases that were filed or what happened in them. So it’s really hard to tell which policies are having the greatest impact.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:02:26] From 1993 to 2013, a number of debt collection lawsuits more than doubled nationwide from less than 1.7 million to about 4 million, and consumed a growing portion of civil court dockets, rising from one in nine cases to one in four in a handful of states. The available data extended to 2018, and those figures suggest that the growth of debt collection as a share of civil court dockets has continued to outpace most other category of cases that claims were the most common type of civil court cases in nine of the 12 states, for which at least some court data was available even before the COVID 19 pandemic brought the economy to a standstill, forcing millions to lose their jobs. American household debt was on the rise, climbing $1.5 trillion between 2009 and 2019, with the unemployment rate at 14.7% at the time of this production. Household debt is expected to climb. Echo Report with the Pew Charitable Trusts recently coauthored a report entitled How Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of the Courts. She spoke with In Black America regarding how consumers can protect themselves and how the COVID 19 pandemic presents a critical opportunity for courts to address the challenges of debt claim cases ahead of a likely surge in filings.

Erika Rickard [00:03:56] I was a kid who grew up wanting to watch Law and Order, and I wanted to be a lawyer, and I eventually made my way to law school. And then I had to figure out what being a lawyer actually meant.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:09] And prior to working for a few charitable trusts, what were some of your other occupations?

Erika Rickard [00:04:15] I worked as an attorney and as a researcher, starting with the Attorney General’s office in Massachusetts and working as a researcher at the Harvard Access to Justice Lab.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:25] And how did we get to this point where some of the civil courts in this country have totally did a 180?

Erika Rickard [00:04:32] So it’s interesting. We’ve been looking at the trends that we see in state courts and who is using our courts and for what kinds of cases. And what we’ve seen is that over the past 30 years, debt collection lawsuits have become the single most common type of civil court case. There are now one in four civil court cases is a debt collection case.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:52] And how did we get to the point where debt collectors are now using state court, state civil courts as a tool?

Erika Rickard [00:05:00] So I think there’s a lot of potential causes here. When we were examining this trend, we also noticed that during that same time when court cases were starting to increase, we also saw the increase in what’s called the debt buyer industry. So these are companies that purchased debts from banks or other original creditors, and then they pursue consumers to try to collect on those debt.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:24] And one. Go ahead.

Erika Rickard [00:05:26] And more and more of the share of their workload has been on bringing debt collection cases in court. So we started to see a really high number of just a few companies using the courts to pursue these deaths.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:39] Now, there is no way in the half in which we have to articulate the full report. But there’s some some items that I wanted to go over with you. When a debt collector goes to court, I assume that they are representing a particular company.

Erika Rickard [00:05:59] That’s right. So it’ll be it may even be one attorney who is there for the day that’s representing a lot of different companies. But the different companies, banks, credit card companies, sometimes medical care providers will have a lawyer that’s representing them in court.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:12] And how does the process work? Once a debt collector is involved in collecting a debt, what does he or she need to do and must do so.

Erika Rickard [00:06:23] In order.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:24] To don’t do?

Erika Rickard [00:06:25] In order to bring a debt collection case to court. The company or the lawyer representing that company will file paperwork in the courthouse and will, in most states serve that court paperwork on the consumer. So make sure that the consumer knows about the court case. What happens next might be that the consumer might have to respond to that case in writing. Or the next step might be that both sides are in the courthouse together. So that’s what’s supposed to happen. But what usually happens in these cases is the debt collector represented by a lawyer filed the paperwork and comes to court. And in 70% of the time or more, the consumer doesn’t respond. The consumer doesn’t file the paperwork or the consumer doesn’t come to the courthouse.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:06] And I was reading in a report that most consumers aren’t aware that the debt collectors collect you for a company because they don’t recognize who the debt collector is. Is that still the case?

Erika Rickard [00:07:17] So we’re not sure that it’s the majority, but it certainly has happened where a consumer will not recognize the name of the company that’s suing them. So in the case of a debt buyer, the name of that company is different from the name of the company that where you took out the original credit card, for example. So so there have been reports of people either not receiving the court paperwork at all or receiving it and not thinking it applied to them because they didn’t recognize the name of the company suing them.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:40] As you say, that is that being looked at as far as who is the original debt holder?

Erika Rickard [00:07:46] So we have started to see states try to identify more information in their court notice. So Maryland, for example, changed some of their rules to make sure that more information was required on the court papers so people could see who it was that was doing them.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:01] Now, I also read that when one is is is notified nine times out of ten one, we just articulate that they are not familiar with the debt collector or the company that they’re suing them. But they had to take off from work, find babysitters and the amount that they owe, they can’t pay.

Erika Rickard [00:08:21] That’s right. We are seeing the kind of the additional costs on top of that debt that might be that somebody might be sued for. There’s also the costs of coming to court. So the cost of taking the time off of work, the cost of child care, and most notably, I think nine out of ten times the consumer does not have a lawyer to represent them. So they’re representing themselves if they’re participating in the case at all.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:40] And majority of the cases are settled by default judgment.

Erika Rickard [00:08:44] That’s right. So a majority of the time, 70% or more in a court that we studied, the debt collector wins almost automatically. So a default judgment means that the court doesn’t review to make sure that the right person was being sued for the right amount or that the case was filed in a timely manner.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:01] So what kind of toll does this have on the consumer as a default judgment is issued?

Erika Rickard [00:09:05] So a default judgment, even though it doesn’t come with that court review, carries the same weight as any other court order. So that means that there can be court costs, there can be attorney’s fees that get tacked on top of the original debt. And it also means that the court order gives the debt collector more avenues for pursuing the consumer for the money that is alleged to be owed. So that can mean garnishing somebody’s wages. It can mean freezing a bank account or putting a lean on someone’s property.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:31] So how convoluted are these particular policies and procedures from state to state? Is one state doing better than another state?

Erika Rickard [00:09:40] That’s an interesting question. And what that speaks to is it would be really nice to know which policies are the most effective. But unfortunately, these cases are really flying under the radar. There’s not a lot of data about what’s actually happening. So in 38 states, we don’t have any data about the number of debt collection cases that were filed or what happened in them. So it’s really hard to tell which policies are having the greatest impact without any data about the court records.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:07] Are there any racial disparities in these debt claims?

Erika Rickard [00:10:10] Unfortunately, yes, we have. We have observed racial disparities. One study from ProPublica a few years ago documented racial disparities and a handful of cities where they were able to look at the court records and see based on zip code and location information that even if you account for income in mostly Black neighborhoods, the default judgment rate was higher than in neighborhoods that were mostly white.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:33] Can we talk about code in force collection? How does that work?

Erika Rickard [00:10:37] So court enforced collection is the idea that a court order provides some additional leverage that’s provided by the government for debt collectors to then approach someone’s employer or to approach someone’s bank. Armed with that court judgments, a private debt can then become the subject of government enforcement, and that in addition to wage garnishment and seizing of assets, there’s one more avenue that’s perhaps the most extreme, which is civil arrest. So in 44 states, there is a law on the books that would permit a civil arrest for for contempt of court, for failure to comply with a court order. In this case, the court ordered judgment against the consumer.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:19] What made you all take up this particular study?

Erika Rickard [00:11:23] So we’re starting from the position of thinking about courts and how courts can better interact with people who are trying to use them today. So we’re looking at how you can modernize courts, thinking about the fact that today’s modern court user is usually somebody who doesn’t have a lawyer. So we were looking at which kinds of cases are really being brought either by people without lawyers or against people without lawyers. And what we found was that the most common type of court case is brought by a business with a lawyer against an individual who doesn’t have a lawyer.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:53] If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio. And I’m speaking with Erika Rickard, director of the Civil Legal System Modernization Project at the Pew Charitable Trust and author of coauthor of How Debt Collectors Are Transforming the Business of State Courts. Erika, what should one, if they’re consumer, receive a notice that they’re being sued by a debt collector?

Erika Rickard [00:12:19] So our research focuses primarily on what states can do. But for consumers, there are some good resources out there. So one one resource is the Federal Trade Commission, which has a website for consumers about how to respond to debt collectors in court and out of court. And that’s consumer.FTC.gov.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:37] I also read that there is a service or something to the to the point of suing service. What is that sewer service?

Erika Rickard [00:12:48] So there have been a couple of states that have investigated cases of what’s called sewer service, which means where instead of serving somebody you may have seen on TV, folks say, you know, you’ve been served and that’s personal service where you get handed court papers. A lot of times in states you’ll see you’ll have service by mail where someone can mail the court papers to you. And sewer service is the idea that the plaintiff or the process server is just throwing your court papers in the sewer. While it may not be literal, the idea that in some cases folks are not actually receiving the court papers. Whether that’s intentional or simply because the wrong address was the address that received the court papers.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:29] So are debt collecters obligated to actually send it to the correct address or there’s just like a paper mill. We just send it out. And if it if it is received fine and if it doesn’t, it still fine.

Erika Rickard [00:13:42] It depends on the state. So some states have different requirements for how you serve a consumer in a debt collection case. But there are some states where you can serve by mailing to the last known address. So that’s not a guarantee that the person still lives there or that the person actually receives the court papers.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:58] Was the data readily available for you all through Texas research?

Erika Rickard [00:14:03] So what we did was we looked at each state puts out an annual statistical report about all the statistics about their court cases, and we looked at each one for several years leading up to 2018. And what we found was that while almost all states do report something about their case loads, very, very few actually report about debt collection cases, or only 12 states that report anything about debt collection cases in their most recent court reports. And of those 12, very few of them actually report on default judgment rates or on debt collection cases across the state. In fact, Texas was the only state that we found that reported on all kinds of outcomes, including defaults for all kinds of cases, including debt all across the state, from the lowest dollar to the highest dollar.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:49] Now, with the downturn of the economy and I understand that a lot of individuals are, you know, using their credit cards and some are maxing them out, what do you foresee in the immediate and far future?

Erika Rickard [00:15:04] So much of the data in our report reflects a time when the economy was strong, but debt collection lawsuits were still continuing to grow. So now, as we’re seeing unprecedented job losses and families in financial distress, we can’t predict the future, but we can certainly anticipate that there are going to be continue to be more debt collection cases.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:23] How are some of these debt collectors able to secure stimulus checks.

Erika Rickard [00:15:28] Stimulus checks is an interesting issue. So stimulus checks from the from the CARES Act and kind of intended for household expenses right now in response to the pandemic. But those are just one more form, one more asset that people have that they might put into their bank account. And if a debt collector has an existing court order against someone, a judgment against someone, they can use that judgment in many states to free someone’s bank account and collect on that stimulus check or other assets.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:55] What has been the reaction thus far from the justice system regarding you all’s research?

Erika Rickard [00:16:02] Regarding the report that’s come up?

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:04] Yes.

Erika Rickard [00:16:04] So we’ve been sharing the report with judicial leaders and policymakers. We have received kind of a lot of interest from state leaders, including state leaders in Texas and Michigan. And some of the folks in the judiciary are actually included in in our research that actually contributed to it. So what we’ve seen is that while judicial folks who are on the ground, court personnel who are dealing with these cases every day, might have been aware of what’s happening in these cases. By and large, state policymakers and other leaders are just now starting to pay attention to these kinds of cases as we’re seeing the response to the pandemic and thinking about courts reopening now is really a time when more state leaders are starting to take notice of what’s happening in their state courts.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:47] What would you our three step approach in analyzing the debt collection lawsuits?

Erika Rickard [00:16:53] So first, we looked at the existing literature and other studies that others have conducted about debt collection cases and about civil caseload trends more broadly. And then we conducted our own research on the individual state level reporting. And then we also conducted interviews and met with folks who represent consumer advocates, who represent creditors and financial institutions and who represent the courts.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:18] With this report, what do you want to see the outcome? What kind of outcome do you want to eventually see?

Erika Rickard [00:17:24] We’ve seen a handful of states that have taken some initial steps, and what we’re trying to share through the report is some initial steps that other states can take, too. And those three steps are states can track and report on debt collection data. They can review their policies and they can modernize the processes between courts and court users.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:42] And I would assume that consumers need to become more savvy when such notices are presented to them and don’t go to court without an attorney.

Erika Rickard [00:17:54] Our goal here is for all parties to know about cases, to be able to actively participate in cases, whether they’re filing them or whether our case is filed against them, and then to receive a ruling that is based on the facts of the case.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:06] And how long it takes you all to put this report together.

Erika Rickard [00:18:10] We’ve been working on this report for several months. This is mostly data that comes from prior to this is all data that comes from prior to the pandemic and was vetted by the research team at Pew.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:21] Do you see any best practices going forward by debt collecting companies? Well, going to still do what they do.

Erika Rickard [00:18:28] So what we were focused on was how courts are responding when debt collectors are filing cases in court and when consumers are or aren’t participating. What is it that courts and other state leaders can do.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:40] To find a common?

Erika Rickard [00:18:41] Jerrica I would encourage folks to take a look at the report at Pew Trust. Scott, Oregon Modern Legal.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:46] Eco Record Project Director, Civil Legal Systems Modernization. The Pew Charitable Trusts. Next week on In Black America, we take a look at the Fannie Angelos Program for Excellence at the University of Baltimore School of Law with its director, Michael Meyerson. The program is a collaboration between the University of Baltimore School of Law and Maryland’s historically Black colleges and universities. The program prefer HBCU students who gain admissions to law school and continue to support them so that they can excel and thrive in law school. African-Americans make up only 1.77% of law firm partners and 3.95% of law firm associates. African-American women make up only 0.6 4% of law firm partners and 2.25% of law firm associates. The following is an excerpt of next week’s conversation.

Erika Rickard [00:19:46] Sunny in the mid 1990s I and a colleague sort of created this program. But I’ll be honest, it took about 15 years to do it right. I thought originally all you have to do is sort of open a door and then life is fine. What I learned over the years was how much it took to level the playing field, because the motto of the program is that we’re not a diversity program. We’re a talent search. Because if you find talent and level the playing field, diversity happens. So what we found is the other thing to be constitutional at the state University, we had to be race neutral. And so we went to historically Black colleges, which are by long race neutral, though in the state of Maryland, overwhelmingly African-American, not entirely, but overwhelmingly. And we went to the fourth schools and we started recruiting people. And from there, we finally figured out in large ways how to really identify those who were not only academically talented but kind of personally motivated. And then we’ve spent time with them working to both explain the system and then get them ready for the LSAT, which gets them into law school, the entrance exam. And then we found that’s not enough cause in law school, when you’re going from a predominantly African-American community to a predominantly white institution, there are still lots of obstacles. There’s institutional racism, there’s individual, and of course then there’s the world of environment and life that people have to sort of deal with. And then we learned after they graduate that’s not enough, because they’re going from a predominantly white institution to an overwhelmingly white profession. And if you look at the numbers of African-Americans who are like in law firms and partners, it is it’s it’s virtually Jim Crow level. And so we we now have a system where we’re sort of working to support and mentor people throughout the process.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:45] What was the HBCU president’s immediate reaction when you all told them that you wanted to develop this program?

Erika Rickard [00:21:54] Well, on one level, it was sort of like, you know, go have at it. I think that part of the problem with institutions is that they’re nervous about sharing. And I think, you know, rightfully so. A lot of the HP CEOs are not very trust, you know, don’t have a lot of instant trust in a predominantly white law school. I think over the years, we’ve proven the most important thing and this is, by the way, touched on sort of it’s a side note, but it’s I think it’s relevant to me. The biggest problem with affirmative action programs is how many of them are built on disrespect. Will lower standards will overlook this. We don’t really expect quality if people don’t do well with. Well, of course, what do you expect? And that’s always I mean, it’s a lie, but I think it’s a real poison. So the program we run is all based on the absolute confidence that the students we are finding are either as good or in most cases better than the students still be competing with at the law school and in the profession at large. And the institutions we’re working with, we treat with respect because what they are accomplishing is so extraordinary. And over time, when you treat people with respect, they begin to believe it, that you actually do respect them. And so that’s become a whole lot better.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:07] I know this is an abstract type of conclusion, but how do you all decide which students that you all select with you all help? These individuals can actually make it.

Erika Rickard [00:23:22] First of all, it’s an art, not a science. And I, I don’t swear where I’d good at it or I’m not good at it. So one of the things I’ve learned is a program like. Like what? Like mine. You learn humility early and often. So one is that you you over time you identify certain traits. For example, if you don’t take personal responsibility for your failures, if you always blame others, it’s really hard to self improve. So that sort of thing. Second, if you don’t believe that you should help others, that you can work as a team. The program isn’t right for you because what we’ve learned is that it’s the community that makes people strong. So you have to accept that. And finally, I don’t do the selection process myself. We have not just other faculty members, but we have people from the program who are incredibly protective of both the both the the the the program and and sort of the the students who come in. And so they have to know because, you know, we don’t by 2001 of the things about a program any program that wants to make change like this is I think you have to recognize that, you know, you’re not going to be perfect. But we’ve gotten better over time. And, you know, basically you also you always, you know, fight the last war. So if one year you realize that you don’t have a sense of community, then the next year you put extra effort when you interview and. Talk to people and then you bring them in to work on the basic skills. You know, again, and this year, I mean, we have a really good group, so I’m feeling better. But it’s still it’s still personalities.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:56] Is there any certain number of students that you all matriculate through this program every year?

Erika Rickard [00:25:01] Well, it’s an interesting point, because the other thing is because there are so few programs that are predominantly white law schools reaching down to collaborate with historically Black colleges and do it in such a holistic way. I mean, there are a lot of programs like help people with the with the with the LCT. But the idea of working with them from sort of the beginning and throughout in a very tense and personal way is unusual.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:28] How important is it that these students buy into you was formed in preparation for the outset?

Erika Rickard [00:25:37] It’s extraordinarily important because first of all, the LCT is aa1 of a kind exam. In many ways, it’s extraordinarily culturally biased. I mean, part of it is like math games. And if you haven’t done these logic games, you’re clueless. Stunning how many students don’t have any background and sort of just taking standardized tests at all. In fact, one of the things in the program is that the four HBCUs, not one of them, had a test prep prep program. The wealthier colleges in Maryland. University of Maryland had, you know, paid for students to take these courses. And I’m going to these historically Black colleges. Not one of them is offering a prep course. So, you know, you just sort of start out having to explain to people we have a new motto, which is that new problems require new tools. And so they if they don’t accept that, if they’re not willing to learn new tools, if they don’t, then then I don’t see how people can do it. And here’s the other thing. What we’ve discovered is even if they are lucky enough to get a decent score on the LCT, if they’re not willing to learn from others, they’re doomed to fail. I mean, because no one’s that smart. And eventually you’re going to need to learn from those who are, you know, who want to help you, who want who have been there before. And it’s the other thing is, especially if you’re an African American entering a white law profession, you need mentors. It’s a hostile world out there. And you might as well learn from those who have fought the battles. I mean, you know, I mean, the beginning of wisdom is letting you learn from other people’s mistakes.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:15] How do you condense this particular program? I guess Let me let me let me back up. When you all finally select a particular candidate and what you of college is that individual in.

Erika Rickard [00:27:27] It’s usually juniors or seniors. And what we do is we have to two different paths for them. We take eight and we call them scholars.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:38] Michael Emerson, the DLA Piper, professor of law and director of the Fannie Angelos Program for Academic Excellence, the University of Baltimore School of Law. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as a future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America@KUT.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook. You can hear previous programs online at kutx.org. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CD’s, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St, Austin, TX 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.

April 26, 2020

Robert Townsend (Ep. 21, 2020)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson speaks with actor, film director/producer and writer Robert Townsend about his challenges and successes over three decades in the entertainment industry, including the groundbreaking film Hollywood Shuffle, the Making The Five Heartbeats documentary, and new television project American Soul.

Intro Music [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner.

Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin. KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Robert Townsend [00:00:23] Well, you know, here’s the thing. I just gravitate to what I want to create. And sometimes people will send me a script or there’s an idea that I have. So when I think in terms of the Five Heartbeats, for example, I wanted to do a movie about five guys, total different guys, and how they become a family making music. And so that’s how that came about. Meteor Man I wanted to, you know, be the first African-American superhero, and I wanted it to be funny and I wanted to make it for kids. So Holiday Hard, which is a film that I directed, I think, you know, it’s a theme, you know, of nontraditional family. But I think any time, you know, I create stuff, even the parenthood that I just really wanted to help raise a generation of kids because I know they’re going to be sitting in front of the TV. So how do I give them, you know, basic lessons on morals and values? And that’s why I created that show.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:23] Robert Townsend, comedian, actor, film director, producer, writer and former cable network programing CEO. He has been referred to as the godfather of the independent film world with more than three decades in the entertainment industry. Many of us remember the memorable work he has produced. He is the genius behind Hollywood Shuffle, The Meteor Man and the Five Heartbeats. Townsend also created award winning programing for television. This include Partners in Crime for HBO, Townsend Television, for Fox Television and the WB network series The Parenthood. His most recent project for television is directing American Soul The Untold Story of Soul Train and the Man Behind Its Legacy, Don Cornelius. Townsend’s documentary, Making the Five Heartbeats was a nominee for outstanding documentary at the 50th NAACP Image Award. I’m John L. Hanson, Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, the legendary Robert Townsend. In Black America.

Robert Townsend [00:02:31] I would say it has changed. You know, I mean, there’s a lot more images of people of color. There’s a lot of new voices that have emerged. So, you know, when I started, it was just basically me and Spike. And then, you know, Kenan started to make, you know, movies. And then John Singleton appeared. So, you know, now there’s a whole new crop of filmmakers that are, you know, aggressive and taking chances. And so it is a different Hollywood now.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:01] As a child growing up on Chicago’s West Side, Hollywood icon Robert Townsend has always been fascinated with the entertainment industry. Raised by a single mother with four siblings on welfare, he spent much of the afternoon time watching television. He began to practice acting out scenes and imitating famous characters. His first film break came as an extra in Cooley High. From there, he landed a role costarring opposite Denzel Washington in A Soldier’s Story, finding work for African-American actors hard to come by. He decided to step out on his own as an independent filmmaker. He wrote, directed, produced and starred in Hollywood Shuffle. The film was a satire depicting the trials and tribulations of African American actors in Tinseltown. The success of the movie made Hollywood take notice, and Thompson was on his way to bigger projects. Eddie Murphy was so impressed with Hollywood Shuffle, he asked him to direct Eddie Murphy Raw. Townsend has been the genius behind many of Hollywood’s favorite and best remembered hit series and movies. Recently, In Black America had an opportunity for the exclusive interview with Robert Townsend.

Robert Townsend [00:04:16] I grew up this man. It was rough. You know, I lived in Cape Town. Um, and it was, you know, gangs on every corner. And, you know, I had to I couldn’t play outside because my mother was afraid that I was going to get recruited by one of the gangs. And so, um, you know, it was a rough time, but it was through that that I learned about theater and television and movies because I was just a little kid.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:42] What were some of the TV shows that you frequently watch while you were destined for the house?

Robert Townsend [00:04:49] Uh, uh, I watched everything, you know, and as a kid, I watched everything. I mean, so you, you can. Hitchcock. Alfred Hitchcock. I watched The Guns of Wilson. It, uh, I love Lucy. Um, you name a TV show…Lassie. I watched everything. You know, I even watch, uh, PBS. I watched opera, French movies. I was the strange little kid, but I loved it all.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:13] So what was life like growing up in the house where you had three other siblings?

Robert Townsend [00:05:19] Yeah, I, um. I am the second oldest. Uh, there’s my sister. My sister Beverly is the oldest, And then my brother Steve is under me, and then my sister. And. And so, you know, we lived in a little small house, you know, apartment, and, uh, you know, it was my mother. My mother had remarried then and my stepfather, Roosevelt, And basically the bathroom was my room. And so in the bathroom is where I, I would, you know, go into my fantasy world creating my characters and the.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:50] Good acoustics in there.

Robert Townsend [00:05:52] Exactly. So that’s kind of where it started for me doing, um, you know, doing impressions and characters and stuff when I was, when I was like nine, nine, ten.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:02] What was it about that Shakespearean play when you were in high school that, that gave you the impetus that maybe this is something I want to do for a living?

Robert Townsend [00:06:12] Well, what it was was that it was really in grammar school. I was in fifth grade and there was a teacher, his name was James Reed, and he wanted kids in the hood to learn about Shakespeare. And so he had us read like three pages of, um, you know, a scene from Shakespeare. And I just remember it was really, really hard. And, you know, this is how I really started because, uh, you know, I was a kid in the hood, and so I wanted to get an A on the paper and, you know, just to read it. And, you know, it was, it looked so hard to me. So I went to the library and I stole all the Shakespeare records cause I’m a little, little kid. And I go, I’m going to listen to them and see if I can understand it better. And when I listen to them on our stereo, you know, in the house, uh, I kind of understood it. And so when we had to read, you know, a scene from Oedipus Rex in class. Mm, uh, I could really, you know, do it like the Royal Shakespeare Company. And so as I read the scene, the class went crazy, but the teacher was like, you have a gift. And that’s when it started for me.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:21] When did you develop your standup comedy?

Robert Townsend [00:07:24] You know what? Uh, I always was a fan of, you know. Meetings that I saw on The Ed Sullivan Show. And because, you know, I like making people laugh. And I’ve always, you know, thought really silly and funny. I don’t know. I don’t know when the very first time there was a club in Chicago called Punch Canellos and Punch in Laws was in downtown Chicago. And, uh, I remember that was the first time I performed stand up. And I had a routine where I would, you know, turn around in a circle and I would do these different characters. And I called it, you know, something like I of Bill, you know, change the channel, and then I could do all these different voices. And that was my first routine.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:07] What gave you the courage to move to New York?

Robert Townsend [00:08:11] Well, it wasn’t so much the courage. There was a teacher. I was going to school at Illinois State University in Normal Bloomington, and I was there and I was a freshman. And I was fascinated with theater in New York. And there was a teacher that was there from New York. And I would ask about, you know, New York. And I was like, how do the actors what is Broadway like? How do they act? And she said, Stop asking me about New York, because you don’t have what it takes to make it in New York. You don’t have what it takes to make it in this business. And she shut me down and I I’d call my mother because it was devastating to me. And I called my mother and I said, you know what? I am going to transfer to New York to a school in New York. I got to see if I’m going if I can make it, if I can do what’s in my heart. And, uh, I transferred there was a student exchange program, and I transferred to a college. I couldn’t get into New York, but I got to college 20 minutes from New York. William Paterson College in Paterson, New Jersey. And I transferred. And that’s how I got to New York because of that teacher.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:19] And what did you major in?

Robert Townsend [00:09:22] Theater. I mean, mass communications and theater. So I did it all, you know, I was a theater minor and radio and TV communications was my major.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:32] And how long did you stay in New York before you decided to move where you are now in Los Angeles?

Robert Townsend [00:09:37] Well, I lived in New York for about six, seven years. And, uh, I was, uh, doing stand up. I had met a young comedian online, you know, uh, uh, I a lining up to get, you know, to an audition for the Improv. And that was Keenen Ivory Wayans. Mm hmm. And so Keenan and I, you know, were the only brothers on on standing outside waiting to audition, and we became like, you know, really good friends. And Keenan moved to L.A. first. Keenan moved to L.A. first, and then after Keenan moved to L.A., then that’s when I, you know, uh, Keenan said, Hey, Rob, I’ll, I, I’ll fly back to, um, I’ll fly back to New York and we can drive your stuff across country. You got to come to L.A. And that’s how I got to L.A.. Kind of drove me across the country.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:31] Did you ever run across Bernie Mac while you were in Chicago? Did you all the same club?

Robert Townsend [00:10:36] No. No, I never because I had left by that point. And I was just doing movies and television. And, uh, when I met Bernie, I was directing BAPS and, uh, um, there was a little small part in BAPS, and everybody was like this. This guy to Chicago, you you need to meet him. Bernie Mac. And then, uh, Bernie did the, you know, the cameo in, uh, in BAPS for me, you know, But I didn’t know him, you know? I just knew. He’s a funny man. Oh, my God. But I would see him at clubs, and he goes, Uh, you know, I’m from Chicago. Boy, you know, I’m from Chicago. You know, we we Chicago boys, we got stick together, you know, and I was just like, man, But he was. He was a beautiful brother. Beautiful brother.

[00:11:20] If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from Coogee radio. And we’re speaking with Robert Townsend, actor, comedian, film director, former CEO of network writer and one of my favorite TV programs that I watched constantly now the Parenthood. Mr. Townsend, tell us about that cameo role in Cooley High.

Robert Townsend [00:11:45] You know, when I was a young actor in Chicago, I was doing theater at an X Bag. It was called X Bag Experimental Black Actors Guild. And, um, the director, uh, my first director there, Payment RAIMI He was also working on a movie, this new movie coming to Chicago, doing extras and helping out behind the scenes. It was called Cooley High and so the director, Michael Schultz, came to see me in the play at X Bag. And then he goes, Oh, you’re going to have an audition. And so I went in and auditioned. I had like a little small part, but I had never done a movie before. And, uh, that movie changed my life because, uh. I had two lines in the movie, but then the movie became a classic. When I saw it, I said, I want to make movies like that. That’s those are the kind of movies I want to make and that kind of change. I remember watching it, I think it was downtown at the Woods Theater was the premiere or something, and I just remember seeing that movie and it just changed me because back then we had, you know, Black exploitation movies, right? You know, but they were just my hero. So I can’t even say exploitation. They were it was the first time we had, you know, Black men and women kicking butt and taking names and falling in love and getting a girl. And, you know, so they were my heroes. So I don’t when people say Black exploitation, you know, but that was a certain that was a certain genre. But then Cooley High came out and it was like my childhood. It was like me and my boys hanging out. So that that was how it began. But that audition with Michael Schultz.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:25] What was it like that first day on set? You know, you dream about being in a movie, but actually showing up and knowing I’m going to be in a movie no matter how small the part is.

Robert Townsend [00:13:38] Well, you know, you’re in all you know, I mean, I was just like, oh, my God. And I had, you know, seen Lawrence Hill and Jacobs and I knew Glynn Turman and their work. And so I was just like, Oh, my God, I’m getting to work with New York, you know, you know, the New York the A-list of New York, you know, Black actors. So I was just in heaven. And then, you know, I didn’t know Michael Schultz, you know, but the way he talked to actors, he just made everybody feel really comfortable.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:11] Is your homeboy.

Robert Townsend [00:14:12] Yeah. Yeah. He was just really cool. And it was just, you know, and we we just had the best time. And I just remember, like, wow, you know, this is what movies are like.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:23] Another memorable role playing Corporal Ellis in A Soldier’s Story.

Robert Townsend [00:14:27] Oh, man, that was a ball, because that was the first time I work with Denzel.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:33] Did you know you’re going to blow up like he has?

Robert Townsend [00:14:36] Oh, my God. I mean, he’s always been really serious about his craft, so. No, I was. I’m not surprised. I’m not surprised at all. I mean, you know, back then, you know, because he had done the the the show, the theater production of A Soldier’s Play. And I was in L.A., and I remember loving the show. But then, you know, when they said, hey, they’re going to make a movie, you know, they always go after the biggest names in Hollywood. And so Norman Jewison, who directed it, he was kind of like, you know what? I’m going to go with new faces. I’m not going to go with the traditional route. And then Reuben Cannon was casting it, and I went in for the part of Corporal Ellis, and I got it. And it was me, Denzel, David Alan Grier, Howard Rollins, Adolph Caesar. And we just had a ball.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:23] Now, Caesar is not with any longer, but the rest of them are. Do you still get a chance to come across each other from time to time?

Robert Townsend [00:15:30] Well, you know, Howard Rollins passed away as well. Yes. You know, so I mean, but everybody’s always you know, everybody’s busy. So we see each other every now and then, like at an awards show or something. But, you know, people are always traveling. And so if you if you’re in the same city and you run into each other, we do still see each other.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:49] Why was it important for you to make Hollywood Shuffle?

Robert Townsend [00:15:53] Well, the Hollywood shuffle came at a time when the images of people of color were really negative. Mm hmm. There were more. You know, they had, you know, the stereotypes in full effect. You know, you had pimps, you had drug dealers, you had gangsters, you know. So it was just. That’s all you saw Black men. Mhm. So I was either I was going to die because that’s the box that at that time that Hollywood was putting all Black you know, actors in and uh, you know, rather than complain I decided that I was going to make a movie. You know what? Keenan and I decided that we were going to make a movie about our journey as young actors in Hollywood, and that’s kind of how it all started. We shot the movie in 12 days. To finish the film, I, I use my credit cards, so it was just hustling on the highest level. And then the film became a huge success.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:52] I was going to ask you about that. Did you ever think it would be an iconic classic that I watch every time it comes on television? Uh.

Robert Townsend [00:17:00] Well, here’s the thing that I would say is that when when you create something that you’re just having fun and it’s not about like, what people think. Keenan and I were just having a good time and being silly and making each other laugh. We thought it was funny. And then eventually the world said, Oh, this is really funny, and it just came together. But but we were just having a good time. Did we think it was good? Yeah, we thought it was funny. You know, did we think it was going to take off the way it did? Not really. We just knew we had done something different and special.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:35] That same year, you you directed Eddie Murphy’s Raw. How did you and Mr. Murphy get together?

Robert Townsend [00:17:41] Well, Eddie was on the comedy circuit, you know, in New York, and we had all seen each other. And then after we did the Hollywood Shuffle, Eddie called and wanted to cause he had heard about the movie. And he said, Oh, brother, everybody talk my Hollywood shuffle, man, you know? And, you know, we weren’t in that many theaters, so you couldn’t really see it. And it wasn’t like DVDs or anything, you know. So then I said, Man, I’ll set up a screening for you. But I had also written a scene in there where we talk about being an Eddie Murphy type. And so then, you know, and then Keenan was like, because Keenan didn’t want to put the scene in there. And I was like, Keenan, You know, it’s funny, man. They want us to be like Eddie Murphy. And he’s like, Robin, put that in there. And I put it in there. And then Eddie called an hour to see the movie. So we were like, Oh, my God, I made a mistake. And so we have the screening for Eddie, and he loves the movie and he loves the scene. And then as he’s walking out of the screening, he says, Hey, I’m going to do this movie in a stand up concert film. It’s going to be called Raw. You want to direct it. And I said, Yeah. And he goes, It’s yours then. And that’s how I got raw.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:54] When you sit down to do a project, what are some of the elements that that you want to include? Because it seems that from my vantage point thus far, the movies that you’ve made, even the television programs, are somewhat family friendly.

Robert Townsend [00:19:10] Well, you know, here’s the thing. I, I just gravitate to what I want to create. And and sometimes people will send me a script or there’s an idea that I have. So when I think in terms of the Five Heartbeats, for example, I wanted to do a movie about five guys, total different guys, and how they become a family, making, making music. And so that’s how that came about. Meteor Man I wanted to, you know, be the first African-American superhero, and I wanted it to be funny and I wanted to make it for kids. So, um, Holiday Hard, which is a film that I directed, I think, you know, uh, it’s a theme, you know, uh, of of nontraditional family. But I think any time, you know, I create stuff, even the parenthood that I just really wanted to help raise a generation of kids because I know they’re going to be sitting in front of the TV. So how do I give them, you know, basic lessons on morals and values? And that’s why I created that show.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:16] Tell us about the Robert Townsend Foundation.

Robert Townsend [00:20:18] My foundation, I have always been committed to filmmakers and helping artists of color. And so over the years, I’ve done masterclasses around the country and I’ve mentored a lot of different filmmakers. And so it’s just my way of giving back.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:34] I was going to ask you, you mentioned it in your other answer. Have you put your finger on why the Five Heartbeats every time it comes on? It’s a major viewing event and it had lasted, you know, 20 plus years.

Robert Townsend [00:20:47] You know, I think the Five Heartbeats resonates with people because the different themes, you know, I think, one, it’s about forgiveness. At the end of the day. Uh, and I, you know, um, you have five guys, you have a falling out, you have a roller coaster ride of rags to riches and all of that. But at the end of the day, they are still family and they forgive each other and they work it out. And I think everybody in life goes through ups and downs, and it’s like, how do you handle it? And I think at the end of the Five Heartbeats, and I don’t know if you’ve seen the documentary Making the Five Heartbeats, which is, you know, the journey behind the film, but it’s kind of like that theme of forgiveness is the overriding theme.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:37] Can you tell us about the gentleman, Jack, Will the Real Project? Are you working with that still?

Robert Townsend [00:21:44] Yes, I am. As a matter of fact, on July 10th at the, uh, Wilton Theater in Los Angeles, you know, a gentleman. A gentleman. Jack has been doing something really interesting. They have been doing all of these screenings of short films as well as discussions with filmmakers. So on July 10th, uh, at the Wiltern, they’re going to show a few films from up and coming filmmakers, and then they’re going to have a discussion with me and I’ll be talking about how I make my movies, why I picked a certain scripts, how I work and just, you know, my overall vision as an artist.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:26] Tell us about Carmen.

Robert Townsend [00:22:27] Carmen, the hip hop opera. Yeah, it was the first hip hop opera. It was Beyonce’s first time acting. So, you know, I was her first director. You have the most definite. You have bow wow. You have Jermaine Dupri. You have Mickey Phifer. So he had an all star cast. And, uh, it was a hip hop opera. And it, uh, it was based on, uh, the opera. Carmen. But it had never, you know, no one had ever seen, uh, a movie where it was rapping all the way through. And, uh, it became one of the highest rated movies for MTV. That’s who produced it. But I had the best time working on it, and it just came out. It’s on Netflix this month, right? Um, but I. I was so proud to work on it on that film.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:17] I understand. Tell us about the TI unit.

Robert Townsend [00:23:20] Huh? Uh, uh, the TI unit. Uh, that’s my daughters and my son. You know, behind the scenes, they’re always working with me. That’s my daughter, Skye. My daughter Sierra. My daughter, Alexia. Uh, my son, Isaiah. And so, you know, they started when they were really young, working with me as babies. And so now, you know, when I work on a project, like, I just shot a presentation for a new, um, a new project. And my kids were, you know, involved in the casting and working with me to, to identify new talent, new artists. So the T union, those are my babies.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:58] That they just naturally gravitate to the industry or did you try to coach them along?

Robert Townsend [00:24:04] You know what? They naturally gravitate, Gravitated Well, see, growing up in Hollywood, you know, they, they you know, they’ve walked many red carpets with me, been to premieres and all that stuff. And then at a certain point they go, I want them talking to me, not just talking to you. Yeah. So? So they’re always vying for that attention. So I get it.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:27] In the last four decades, obviously, Hollywood was a different animal when you first came there. Has it changed that much?

Robert Townsend [00:24:35] I would say it has changed. You know, I mean, there’s a lot more images of people of color and there’s a lot of new voices that have emerged. So, you know, when I started, it was just basically me and Spike. And then, you know, Kenan started to make, you know, movies. And then John Singleton appeared. So, you know, now there’s a whole new crop of filmmakers that are, you know, aggressive and taking chances. And so it is a different Hollywood now.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:08] I got two more question. One question is, are we ever going to see a dramatic television program? The last one I can remember is Larry was sindrome with lewd gossip. Most of the African-Americans on television, they’re probably in a comedy or situation. Comedy situation.

Robert Townsend [00:25:24] Well, I mean, when you look at, uh, how to get away with murder or Scandal, I mean, those are.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:29] Right.

Robert Townsend [00:25:30] Characters in a dramatic situation. When you look at this guy, that’s a dramatic power. So there are dramas, you know what I mean? So I, I just know from from my side, you know, the the new ideas that I have in my head, they’re all so different. And so I I’m always going to try something new. But I think right now there’s a there’s a lot more images than than we’ve had before.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:54] Did you ever get a chance to keep the houndstooth hat you had on The Five Heartbeats?

Robert Townsend [00:25:58] Say that again.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:59] That Hound two hat that you wore in the Five Heartbeats, did you keep that or you went back to wardrobe?

Robert Townsend [00:26:05] I kept it, but what happened was I had a building that was my studio in Hollywood. And when the earthquake hit, I lost everything in the earthquake. And so, yes, all my props and all my stuff was in the in the, uh, in my building, in my studio. And, uh, it was like a 16,000 square foot building. But when the aftershocks came, you know, you know, people were like, we go in there and get it. I was like, No, no, I want to body die trying to get my hat. No, no. So, so a lot of my stuff got, you know, lost in the earthquake.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:39] What do you see yourself five, ten years from now? Mr. Townsend?

Robert Townsend [00:26:45] You know what? 5 to 10 years from now, I just want to continue to create. You know, I, I love, you know, making, you know, movies and television shows. Um, next month I go down to, you know, Atlanta. I’m shooting Black Lightning, so I’ve been directing that and acting on that. And then, uh, American Soul four Betty, uh, directed a few episodes of that, so I may be going to that, uh, been working on a one man show about my life, so it’s just a lot. I’m just being an artist. So for the next years, I just want to continue to create and just do what I do now.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:21] American Soul was the story of Don Cornelius and Soul Train.

Robert Townsend [00:27:25] Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So we we did the. First season, I directed two episodes and people really seem to love the show. And so now there’s a new season. And so, you know, they’re putting the schedule together now, and so I’ll see if I’m going to come back for that.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:41] Robert Townsend, comedian, actor, film director, producer, writer and former cable network programing CEO. If you have questions, cameras or suggestions, ask the Future In Black America programs. Email us at In Black America Editor Kuchi Date Ohaji. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on his program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CDs, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St, Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.

March 22, 2020

Sean Durant and Regina A. Mason (Ep. 16, 2020)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. concludes his conversation with Sean Durant, producer and director of Gina’s Journey: The Search for William Grimes, and Regina A. Mason, author of The Life of William Grimes, The Runaway Slave.

[00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio. This is In Black America.

Virginia Mason [00:00:23] The year was 2000 when my mother and I took a trip back to King George County, Virginia, where William Grimes was born, and the estate. Eagle’s Nest still stands. And that was the home of Benjamin Grimes. And I wanted to I in fact, I was invited to go back and to tour the grounds with the present day owner who had no affiliation with the family. By the way, Eagle’s Nest remained in the Grimes and Fitzhugh family for 300 years before it sold in 1974, the year I began high school.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:05] Virginia Mason, International speaker, executive producer and author of Life of William Grimes The Runaway Slave, published by Oxford University Press. The Life of William Grimes. The Runaway Slave is the first fugitive slave narrative in American history because Grimes wrote and published this narrative on his own without deference to white energy, his publisher or sponsors. His life in intimacy, candor and no holds barred realism unparalleled in the famous antebellum slave narratives during that time. Mason In the same vein as the late Alex Haley and her stories about her great great great grandfather, William Grimes, following clues on my aunt Katherine she and bonked on a 15 year journey. She would later partner with William Andrews to publish a new edition of his pioneering work in 2017, a documentaries made combining two stories. Mason’s journey to discover and trace the steps of our ancestor and Grimes story as a slave and his thirst for freedom. I’m Daniel Henderson, Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Gina’s Journey The Search for William Grimes, But Sean Durant and Regina Mason, Part two. In Black America.

Virginia Mason [00:02:25] Once I started digging into this story and realizing that no other scholars had really looked at it. In fact, when I went looking for any body of research that was done on William Grimes, it was so inaccurate. And there were historians who just took a liberty to to write about this man, having not done any research whatsoever. And then I came across the work of Dr. William Andrews, a scholar from you, and C, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Right. This extraordinary expert on early African American autobiography. I came across his book to tell a free story, and he studies the slave narratives. And included in his body of work, which is sort of like the Scholars Bible today. He wrote about William Grimes.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:26] Regina E. Mason is a remarkable woman. She spent 15 years of her life researching the life of a great, great, great grandfather, William Grimes. With nothing to go on but the connection to the Underground Railroad. She spent countless hours in libraries, reading books, looking at microfilm and census records. Grimes was ten years old when he was all the way from the eyes of a grieving mother to a far off plantation who grew up friendless and motherless with apparently no surrogate slave, family or loved ones to embrace him. No one even to look after him. Grimes was the first person to go through slavery in the South and write about it. This was the first time Southern slavery exposed from the perspective of one who had lived it. And he was the first author to write about the harsh realities of the North, despite the narrative of his being a Freedomland. Recently In Black America, I spoke with Sean Durant, the producer of Gina’s Journey, the Search for William Grimes and Regina mason. On today’s program, we conclude our conversation.

Speaker 4 [00:04:31] And so my co-producer contacted his agent, his agency, and they sent it over. And to my astonishment, he came back and was like, I’ll do it. And it was more than a reasonable rate and which also made a saint. And the next thing you know, I was out in in Hollywood, in Melrose, actually, at his recording studio and directing Keith David in the booth, which was mind blowing, to say the least. And he was astonished to see, you know, me and, you know, given my age and what I’d done and being an African-American male to be directing this film. So that really made him happy when he saw that he just was was really blown away with it. But he blessed the project, came in. He did the most amazing work on it, and it really just elevated Gina’s story and Grimes story to a whole new level. So we will be entirely thankful to him for that. And every once in a while I do have talks with him still, and he’s just a really good person. And I think he’s a studier of history. He’s very big in the voiceover world. He’s an Emmy Award winning voice actor who’s done a ton of Ken Burns documentaries, right? So he was really into it and this is his thing. So I think he really enjoyed working on this project and we were better for it.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:50] Yeah, I. Matt Mason Honestly, this was labor intense. This is way before Google and everything else. So what gave you that consistent drive to work wanting to complete this project?

Virginia Mason [00:06:05] William Grimes himself, You know, when you read his narrative, all that he endured in life, the cruelty, the abuse, right at every turn, he was reminded that he was nothing, but he never bought into the status quo. In fact, he defied the status quo at every turn. Just the fact that he had the notion that he was capable of writing his own story without any assistance from white people speaks to who he was and how self-assured he was. So his example of perseverance and endurance gave me the will to to just carry on and see this this project to to the end. And I’m speaking of the book project. And I do have to say this. Once I started digging into this story and realizing that no other scholars had really looked at it. In fact, when I went looking for any body of research that was done on William Grimes, it was so inaccurate. And there were his. Arias, who just took a liberty to to write about this man having not done any research whatsoever. And then I came across the work of Dr. William Andrews, scholar from you and see you and see Chapel Hill. University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Right. This extraordinary expert on early African American autobiography. I came across his book to tell a free story. And he studies the slave narratives. And included in his body of work, which is sort of like the scholar’s Bible today. He wrote about William Grimes. Not a whole lot more than I had found those about four pages of work. And I needed to make sense of that genre of literature that I really knew nothing about. So I reached out to him and he at the time was the only living scholar who that who I could talk to. And we sort of built a relationship. Every now and then I would send him information about what I found of William Grimes. And he one day wrote me back and he said, Look, the work you’ve done has to be preserved in some fashion or another. And then he broached the idea of partnering to do a book, because I knew that Bill knew that I, I wanted to bring this story to light this new scholarship that had never been done before on William Grimes. And he definitely was the right person because obviously he had studied Grimes. He had written about Grimes. And there was really no one else that I could associate myself with. And he was the man when it came to early African-American autobiography. And so we partnered and we developed what we call or what has been the authoritative edition of The Life of William Grimes, the Runaway Slave.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:41] What was it like your feelings when you you read his narrative and then understood that your great great grandfather was just not an ordinary slave?

Virginia Mason [00:09:56] Well, I want to say this. William Grimes was an ordinary man who did an extraordinary thing. I want people to realize we may not have those narratives out there. We may not be able to to we can may be able to find our ancestor who had been enslaved on a in a plantation records or slave inventories. And all you see are names. Sadly, those voices, we will never know their voice or their humanity because the story doesn’t exist, Right? So to find this first person account of slavery and by the way, William Grimes is the first person of color to go through slavery in the South and write about it. So for the first time, we got to hear about Southern slavery from the perspective of the slave and not from the slave owner himself. So it’s a different kind of story and it’s more authentic and true in terms of the experience. So to recover this and then associate myself to this narrative, I realize that all of his virtues are inside of me. So when you say William Grimes was not the ordinary slave, he definitely speaks for those who didn’t have a voice. And I believe that none of the slaves bought into the enslaved narrative that was supposed to be their destination and ultimately was their destination. Or, yes, I believe that they all had that will to be free and and in their own circumstances, they asserted whatever power they had in a rebellious way. And so to know, though, that William Grimes was able to make it out of slavery and to tell his story is huge. It is. It’s just incredibly empowering and. I realized again that his virtues exist in me, and he was my example every step of the way. When I wanted to give up, when I was faced with all kinds of closed doors, I realized that he faced those same issues and he was told no. Over and over again. But he found a way to get it done. And so I, I it brings me great pride that this enslaved man who never bought into the status quo live within me. And so, you know, Shawn and I talk about this all the time because to get this film done was also it was a huge challenge. Money was always an issue. And we found ways and I can understand how he, you know, had to fill in pieces and so forth to get the project done. But we always had William Grimes at our back, and he was always the the example that we aimed for because we knew if he was capable of not only getting writing in his book, but finding a way to to to sell his book and to register with the state of Connecticut, we realized that it was within us to get our projects done as well.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:45] Whatever you all were going through really wasn’t that difficult.

Virginia Mason [00:13:49] Absolutely.

Speaker 4 [00:13:50] Absolutely.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:51] What do you want readers and just ask you first the same question and also you, Mr. Duran. What do you want readers to come away from the book and also the movie?

Speaker 4 [00:14:02] Well, I would say, you know, in Jena can speak even deeper on her story in the movie and the book. But for me, particularly with the movie, you know, I want them to to get from the movie, to go get the book to read about the details of William Grimes’s life and his story, and to read about Jena’s story, which is in the afterword of the book. So really, the movie is just the beginning of their journey of understanding this journey. So what I want them to get out of the movie is to go see the movie and understand that we all have a story. We all can tell our story, whether it be from writing a book, doing a movie, passing it down to your children as she passed it down to her daughters. But just getting out there and discover now we have, you know, Ancestry.com and T3 in me, but I want them to watch the movie and understand that history is important. Our stories are important. And in finding the content that’s meaningful out there and spreading it, we worked long and hard and Jena put in a lot of time to create and get this book done. And then she, you know, unselfishly went on another ten years to make the film and to get it out to a wide audience. We want people to find it. Go to our Web site at Gina’s journey dot com, and then go to Amazon Prime and watch the movie and, you know, obviously tell a thousand of their best friends to watch it because we really think that is an important story. We think that, you know, William Grimes is an important historical figure that needs to be in the history books. I think it’s important because I want I always wanted to make film with strong female leads. I got that from James Cameron, who idolize as a director and a producer. And I think Regina mason is that. And I think that it’s important for people to see that we can not only make content about African-American people or just Americans in American history, but for this new movement with women that they can be strong, they can stand up, they can get their own history, they can do the things that everybody else in men can do, and they can share those stories with their children and in particularly their daughters. We want people to watch the film and realize they can make a movie about or go further than that. They can actually become president of the United States, you know, after Michelle does or her daughter. So, you know, that’s what I want people to get out of the film, that there is no limitations. Now, the old rules of Hollywood, you can’t make a film without us are gone. The streaming services have changed all of that. Anybody We made this film from script to screen to stream and and we did it all on our own, financed by us. My wife was the executive producer, another strong, powerful Black women along with Regina mason, to show that we can take control of our stories and we can can can guide other people to and and get them out there. So I’m hoping that people will have, you know, a good response to the film. It encouraged them to go learn about history, learn about their past, whether it’s through DNA or other methods, but more importantly. Go out and tell your own story. Tell your own story. So please go watch Gina’s journey. The search for William Grimes on Amazon Prime and definitely spread the word.

Virginia Mason [00:17:34] Mason Yes, I would like the audience or people to take away from this film a couple things. First of all and foremost, and it’s by William Grimes’s example is to give yourself permission, and that is now a virtue I live by. MM If we sat around and waited for the scholars, the academics, the, the people with all the money and the lofty titles to retrieve this story, we would still be waiting if we waited for someone in Hollywood to give us a permission. Permission to make this film, we would still be waiting. The bottom line is something that William Grimes shows us in this film and in this book is to give yourself permission. And I want women to take that away, that message away children, anyone who has a desire or is passionate about anything. Don’t wait for someone to tell you, yes, you can, because you’ll be waiting a long time. You have to go out there and seize the moment by any means necessary. Okay. And when I say any means necessary, I mean in a good, law abiding way, you can get your story out there. And stories are powerful. Storytelling changes, perspectives. You’re not out there pointing fingers and saying, you know, you are this here, that you should have done it this way. So you simply tell your story and people what people will take away, what they need from this story. And we have people come to us all the time and talking about how this movie has inspired them and inspired them in ways that we never even conceptualize. So storytelling is powerful. Film is a great way to tell a marvelous story, and so is writing your life story. But another thing that I want our audience to come away with is that genealogy for the African American has the power to reclaim what was once denied. You see, by reclaiming the lives of our people who are often marginal and insignificant. We get a chance to honor them when we reclaim this history, and through that process of reclaiming and honoring our ancestors, fortify us and they help to make us whole. That is very important to me, and I want people out there into generationally talking about the family story. So often we hear about, Oh, who wants to talk about that? I mean, I’ve heard this so many times. Who wants to talk about picking cotton? You know, let’s leave that in the past. But yeah, we got to talk about the painful things. We have to talk about the history and what we lived through so that we young can remember what it was like. But not only that, they’re going to carry those names forward so they’re not forgotten. They’re going to carry those locations forward. There’ll be a memory of where our people came from. And then once you start doing the research, you put meat on the bones and then a story develops one worthy of remembrance and sharing. So I hope Sheila’s journey of the search for William Grimes sparks that kind of an interest and dialog.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:29] And the same. One final question. Were you able to reach out to Benjamin Grimes family once you completed this project?

Virginia Mason [00:21:35] Oh, let me tell you. Yes. The year was 2000 when my mother and I took a trip back to King George County, Virginia, where William Grimes was born and the estate Eagle’s Nest still stands. And that was the home of Benjamin Grimes. And I wanted to in fact, I was invited to go back and to tour the grounds with the present day owner who had no affiliation with the the family. By the way, Eagle’s Nest remained in the family for three. The Grimes and Fitz, your family for 300 years before it sold in 1974, the year I began high school. So that legacy was rich and very much entrenched. And I went back there at the invitation of the present day owner, and he told me that, you know, we really should get this story to the historic local historical society, because it’s he thought it was a compelling story. Long story short, at the time, in the year 2000, when I thought we had come a long way as a nation. I was moved. The story was sort of rebuffed and they were not interested in it. And then I realized what I was up against. Mm hmm. So I. I left it alone. And when my book came out in 2008, and even up to the present time, I get people contacting me all all the time saying that we are related. And these are white Grimes’s and Fitz, and we have connected. And they’re the younger generation who are definitely open to the story. And so it sort of taken an interesting and a nice twist in that we are embracing each other.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:48] Any final comment, Sean?

Speaker 4 [00:23:50] No, just information on basically how to how to help us out in this journey. People want to get involved. A good place to start is w WW dot Gina’s journey dot com. It has the trailer. It has all the information on the film, all the places we’ve been, all the places we’re going, and most importantly, a link to seeing the film on the biggest platform, which is Amazon Prime. The most important thing is we want to share the story and get it out. Another myth you want to dispel is that a lot of people think that African-Americans in general can’t work together. Well, I think Regina’s Masons family, my family, and all of us together prove that that’s not true. We took the book, we entered a seven year journey, and we were able to come out on the other side with this wonderful film. And everybody is still friendly. We’re all together. You know, we we, you know, fought like cats and dogs, and we’re very passionate about getting the best quality and getting this done. But our bonds were never broken. We started as a family group. We we made this incredible project and we ended as an even stronger family group. And that’s something that I think is important for people to know. And the only way they’re going to know that is if, you know, our group as African-Americans and Americans at large spread the word about this film to create a studio quality, independent film and maintain the story rights for Gina and maintain the ownership of the film is an incredible story in itself, and it proves what we can do not only as a as a family group, but as you know, as a people in general. So I think it’s important to get that out. And the only way that’s going to happen is if we move mountains by blowing this film up, we want it to go viral. So please watch it on Amazon Prime. Spread the Web site, spread the link around and leave a review. Leaving reviews on Amazon Prime helps r r r algorithm. It helps it get bigger and bigger and spread further. So the best thing that we think the audience can do for us and the greatest compliment is to just tell a friend about the film. And in that way they become part of our journey. This film was made for the community, by the community, made by people that helped us along the way, and now we’re just going to the next phase of it. So anything they can do to spread the word, you know, nationally, internationally about the film, anything they can do to get the word out there and let people know about this story, we greatly appreciate.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:30] Ms.. Mason, you’ll find the comments.

Virginia Mason [00:26:32] Oh, yes. I just kind of wanted to echo a little bit about what Sean is saying. We definitely want the public to support this film, genuinely support it, and to view it and view it with their all ages, their grandparents, mothers, fathers make it a family thing because it is a family story. It is definitely a family story. And one thing that Sean and I like to do and we have been invited really from the East Coast to the West Coast and all this all over the U.S. bringing screenings to on university level campuses. We’re at Historical Society genealogical societies. We come with our film and we have a nice presentation that we bring to. The audience as well. So we show the film are accessible on Amazon Prime is Shaun said. But we do engagements all over the nation as well, so if anyone’s interested, they can check us out on Genius Journey dot com.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:39] Regina mason International Speaker, executive producer and author of Life of William Grimes, The Runaway Slave, published by Oxford University Press. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as to the future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America at Kuti that ohaji. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at KUT.org Until we had the opportunity again for Jodi co producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

Speaker 2 [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by Writing In Black America CDs, KUT Radio 300 West Dean Keeton St., Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.

March 8, 2020

Juan Pablo Segura (Ep. 14, 2020)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

On this week’s program, In Black America producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses the high rates of maternal mortality among African American women with Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of Washington, DC.-based mobile app Babyscripts.

Intro [00:00:08] The In Black America theme music, an instrumental by Kyle Turner.

Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:00:23] The first thing we did, myself and the other founder, we we actually went and got a chief medical officer. And so we we very quickly brought in an open two way and the chair of obstetrics at a hospital here in D.C. called Sibley Hospital. And, you know, we started putting together a team of technologists. So, you know, developers, you know, health care specialists. And very slowly, you know, we we have we had a big vision, which was how could we get not just smartphones, but Internet connected medical devices to the whole Internet of Things revolution. How could we get those devices in the patient’s home and start to catch problems earlier through remote patient monitoring so that less moms have to die in this country when it comes to them going through their pregnancy?

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:11] Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of the Washington, DC based Babies Groups. In recent years as high rate of maternal mortality in this country have alarmed researchers. One statistic has been especially concerning. According to the Center for Disease Control, African American mothers die at 3 to 4 times the rate of white mothers, one of the widest of all racial disparities in women’s health. Put another way an African-American woman is 22% more likely to die from heart disease than a white counterpart, 71% more likely to perish from cervical cancer. But 243% more likely to die from pregnancy on childbirth related causes. In a national study of five medical complications that are common causes for maternal death and injury. African American women were 2 to 3 times more likely to die than white women who had the same condition. Segura and his team at Babyscripts have been working tirelessly to improve maternal health in the District of Columbia, as well as around the nation. I’m Danielle Hinton, Jr, and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, African-American D.C. mothers are Dying and we Can Save Them. With Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of Babyscripts In Black America.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:02:28] I really think as we think about trying to solve the problems that we have here in the district, since there are very few doctors offices in Ward seven and eight, which are the very economically disadvantaged wards here in DC, there actually are no hospitals and maternity hospitals in Wards seven and eight. So if someone wants to deliver, they have to cross town. So think of the cost of doing that the time. You know, if there’s an issue. Complications that could occur by having to wait so long. So what we’ve been talking a lot about here in DC and a lot of work that I’ve been doing is how can we get digital tools that can make care available at any time, any place? How do we make them more accessible and how can we get doctors to give them more to their patients?

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:11] Washington, DC, like many cities in this country, experienced the lack of access for quality health care in certain neighborhoods. This has created a unique problem for African-American pregnant women. With that in mind, Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of Babyscripts, designed the platform to help expectant mothers. Two years ago, Wisconsin based health care provider as baby script to develop a strategy to reach that population. They realized they had to focus on technology and target ease of access via smartphone and to text messaging for women having trouble getting health care. What began in 2014 with the hope of transforming both how doctors and patients think of and use technology to improve their health care has now provided meaningful access to health care in underserved communities and improve the status quo of pregnancy care. Recently In Black America spoke with Juan Pablo Segura.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:04:07] So I actually was born in that in the D.C. area, in Northern Virginia. My family’s actually from Argentina. So I’m a first generation American, and yet where I have stuck around D.C. haven’t really fallen too far from the tree here. Love of the district. And I started my company Babyscripts here in the in the D.C. area as well. So very, very proud of what we’re doing here in the district.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:35] What led you to start the company?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:04:38] It’s really interesting. I used to be a consultant working for a big company called Deloitte. And, you know, I, I was I still am, you know, a lost millennial. Right? And so I just couldn’t I really couldn’t jive very well with with a big company. I was looking for meaning, looking to do something impactful. And a friend of mine had had a real tough health care experience that just opened my eyes to how broken the U.S. health care system was. And so, you know, I decided to do what anyone that’s watched Shark Tank. To do. I started a company and I ended up choosing pregnancy care because of my mom. I come from a big Hispanic Catholic family. You know, I had five siblings, so I’m one of six kids. And as I kind of reflected on my mom’s journey in health care, she actually had three miscarriages. And, you know, just the memories I had of the pain, the lack of answers. You know, I really believe that I believed back then, and I still believe to this day that technology and data and all these new tools that we have at our disposal can really start to solve and answer some of these tough questions for women especially.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:59] Now, I understand that you started this, what, in 2014?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:06:02] Yup. 2014. Five very long years ago.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:06] And how did you put the group together? I guess you got designers and engineers and marketers and doctors and sciences.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:06:14] Yeah. So the first thing we did. So, you know, I’ve. I’ve got big ideas and wanted to make a big impact. But the first thing we did, myself and the other founder, we we actually went and got a chief medical officer. And so we, we very quickly brought in an open to way and the chair of obstetrics at a hospital here in D.C. called Sibley Hospital. And, you know, we started putting together a team of technologists. So, you know, developers, you know, health care specialist. And very slowly, you know, we we have we had a big vision, which was how could we get not just smartphones, but Internet connected medical devices to the whole Internet of Things revolution. How could we get those devices into patients homes and start to catch problems earlier through remote patient monitoring so that less moms have to die in this country when it comes to them going through their pregnancy? And so, you know, it took a long time to get to where we’re at today. But what’s really exciting is we’re now in more than 50 health systems in 23 different states, and we touch around 200,000 pregnant women across the country. So, you know, it’s you know, I think anything’s possible in this country with a big idea and a lot of energy and a lot of hope.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:32] You would think in the nation’s capital, you know, health care will probably, you know, you’ll be one of the best. But what are some of the root causes of the high infant mortality rate that’s going on in the nation’s capital?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:07:45] Yeah. So that’s definitely a loaded question. Okay. And, you know, there are a lot of issues going on in D.C. But for those that might not know in D.C., you know, when you start to look at the breakdown of of maternal mortality, especially amongst racial groups, black women in this country, you know, have about a 70. It’s all measured out of 100,000 people. But, you know, our rate is about 70 out of 100,000. That’s almost three times the national rate of maternal mortality. And it’s double the national rate of black maternal mortality. So when you start looking at the outcomes that we’re getting in the D.C. area, they’re really abysmal. And it’s a travesty. And, you know, there are a lot of reasons for that. Some a lot of them are tied to poverty and economic inequality. A lot of it is tied to, you know, also, you know, racial bias and dumping in black women, not getting the care that they need when they need it because of the color of their skin. And there are also a lot of issues around structural barriers, lack of transportation to go see a doctor, not enough hospitals where, you know, either the black women or the disadvantaged, economically disadvantaged women live. And so it’s almost impossible to really get good care so that, you know, you can have a healthy and happy pregnancy and delivery and postpartum journey.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:18] I understand there’s a bill before Congress or has it has it passed?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:09:22] So there’s some pretty interesting nationwide. There actually are a couple of bills that are being led by some incredibly progressive and really innovative Congress, women and men. For example, Congresswoman Underwood from Illinois is is pushing some really important national, you know, whether it’s maternity bills in the in the Congress, but here at home with the D.C. council. So the local kind of legislative organization here in the nation’s capital that covers the D.C. residence, there’s actually been a couple incredible bills. For example, the maternal health Care Improvement and Expansion Act that are really focusing both the government and local business and organizations to start to address these massive gap in outcomes for. For black women here in the district and for all women as well, but especially for for for minorities. And so we’ve been actually trying to work really hard to get this bill passed and to be approved. And so now it’s in the House committee here in the D.C. Council.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:31] I was looking at some of the literature in which you all said, and I want to go through some of them. Digital health tools such as remote patient monitoring. How does that work?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:10:42] Yeah. So so I think maybe to kind of separate what what, what we do as a company and then what we’re trying to do here in the district. Okay. So, yeah, a lot of digital health, you know, in mobile health. When you think of innovation in health care through technology, there’s kind of two main categories of, of of tool sets. The first is something called telemedicine, which, you know, imagine doing a video visit with your doctor where they can see you, You can see them and you talk about your symptoms or problems and, you know, they could prescribe you something. And that’s what a lot of people have thought innovation in health care is or it’s made up of through technology. There’s actually into many people’s surprise. There’s also and I would say a much larger category of innovation that we call digital health, which isn’t a video visit. It’s either a smartphone app that patients have access to. It could be the use of a Bluetooth or a cellular enabled medical device, like a blood pressure cuff, a blood glucometer or weight scale that you know, can connect directly to a doctor’s electronic medical record. And so all of these tools that aren’t video visits but can remote monitor a patient, can deliver through a chat, a kind of interaction or intervention. This is a very fast growing space in health care. And traditionally there’s been no reimbursement for those tools. So for digital tools, it’s very hard for doctors to get paid to give them to patients like a prescription or like telemedicine video visit, because not a lot of people really understand it. And, you know, I really think as we think about trying to solve the problems that we have here in the district, since there are very few doctors offices in Wards seven and eight, which are the very economically disadvantaged wards here in D.C., there actually are no hospitals and maternity hospitals in Wards seven and eight. So if someone wants to deliver, they have to cross town. So think of the cost of doing that. The time, you know, if there’s an issue, complications that could incur by having to wait so long. So we’ve been talking a lot about here in D.C. is a lot of work that I’ve been doing is how can we get these digital tools that can make care available at any time, any place? How do we make them more accessible? And how can you get doctors to give them more to their patients? And so, you know what? What we’ve been trying to work on and what we’ve been trying to enhance in this build the Maternal Health Care Improvement Extension Act is to create the first digital health mandate where insurance in the district would cover these new technologies like remote patient monitoring, so that we can start to give women care if they can’t see a doctor immediately.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:30] How would these particular services work outside of the D.C. area, or can it work outside the D.C. area?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:13:37] I mean, I think there’s huge opportunity outside the D.C. area when you start to look at, for example, rural health care. Mm hmm. So what you’re seeing here in D.C. is there’s structural inequality and there’s structural kind of transportation barriers that are making it really hard for women to get the care they need. That further complicates the pregnancy rate. But, you know, you’re talking about smaller distances. Obviously, it’s very complex in a big city. But, you know, you’re not talking about miles or tens of miles of distance. You’re talking about a small area and you think about rural health care. 50% of counties in the United States lack a practicing OB-GYN. And that’s a really scary number. So when you look at, okay, well, women are pregnant and they have to drive 3 hours to get to the closest doctor. Think of, you know, how, for example, if there’s a blood pressure related issue, I don’t know how much you know about blood pressure problems, but blood pressure problems account for 10 to 15% of maternal deaths. And so when you think about, you know, a rising blood pressure that could be tied to something called preeclampsia, that could lead to a stroke and death, if women have to go see three, go to go travel 3 hours to just get a consultation with a doctor. There are huge issues in catching problems early, getting help when it’s needed. And so I think technology, especially digital health tools, have a big role in starting to address these big issues and moms getting the care they need.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:09] As you mentioned, you know, high blood pressure. I was also reading that, you know, heart disease and stroke. May be related to the infant’s death or the mom’s death sometime after after delivery.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:15:23] Oh, absolutely. So there’s kind of a when you look at the maternity journey, there’s obviously the time that you’re pregnant, but there’s the time after you’re pregnant, the postpartum journey. And, you know, in many ways, the postpartum journey can be just as dangerous than the actual pregnancy. So, for example, the number one reason for postpartum readmission. So mom getting released from the hospital and then having to go back to the hospital after they deliver is blood pressure. It’s the number one reason blood pressure problems like preeclampsia somewhere. Where is the number one reason for maternal death is blood pressure in the postpartum time period. And so when you think about those issues and the fact that what if you were to give a mom a blood pressure cuff that has a Bluetooth or cellular chip inside, so every time they take their blood pressure, that data goes back to their doctor. And if something is wrong, the doctor can automatically know that the patient does have to call the doctor. They don’t have to do anything. That data automatically goes back to the doctor, and the doctor can obviously follow up, get the patient to come in, say, Hey, you’re not okay, come in now. And we’re talking about real life saving interventions. And, you know, that’s that’s what we focus on as a company or a baby scrubs. But we’re not the only ones. And, you know, we testified in front of the D.C. Council on Wednesday, And, you know, what we were sharing was the doctors. They know that these tools exist. They know that they can make a big impact. But the problem is no one pays for them from an insurance perspective. And the doctors just don’t have money to pay for these kinds of experiences. And so that’s why, you know, we have to start having insurance companies started covering these services because these are real life saving services that can also reduce costs, improve quality, and really make a huge impact in in all of our moms. So, yeah.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:23] That brings me to my next question with insurance companies, How do you are going about articulating the level of their involvement and as you say, reducing costs in the long term?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:17:37] Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and this is it’s unfortunate that that, you know, we have to we have to put together a return on investment analysis to, you know, essentially what that has, you know, an internal rate of return or, you know, 100% of your money back kind of thing. It’s unfortunate that we have to do that to to get to get some kind of action or movement. And and so, you know, number one, the state of of of health care and how we make decisions I think is very broken. You know, we need to be doing the right things. And that’s taking care of our moms, especially our African-American moms. So, you know, I think that’s point number one. But what I’m seeing and there is a lot of change happening. You have some very early adopters that are doing some incredible work on the insurance side. A great example that someone I will applaud to the day I die is the CEO of America Health Care to us here in D.C.. Her name is Karen Dale and she has decided to reimburse these tools. Obviously, there isn’t a why, but she reimbursed these tools because it was the right thing to do for providers in Washington, DC. Now, that’s one insurance plan of many. And so we need to get the other ones to come in and start paying for this. But but I think the leadership of the more progressive and really intelligent, emotionally intelligent people that understand the problem and understand that there’s a need, you know, you’ll really see the improvements that will happen in those areas, but it’s still a very long wait to get these things reimbursed. I think we need a lot of awareness. There’s this whole concept called social determinants, and we know that it’s just not a, you know, a one visit with a doctor that will change the the outcome journey of a mom or of any patient for that matter. Right. When you start to look at where patients live, right, they’re geographies, access to healthy food that they might have or that they don’t have stable housing, access to transportation, all of these factors contribute to a patient’s overall and inevitable health. And so a lot of kind of traditional health care has never really focused on, you know, a patient living environment. They only ask, what’s your blood pressure? How much do you weigh and what’s your temperature? Right. And if everything checks out, it’s like, okay, good luck. You look great. Goodbye. When we know that, how can a mom have a healthy pregnancy If she doesn’t have healthy food? How can the mom have a healthy pregnancy? If, you know, she’s suffering from domestic violence. All of these things are contributors to preterm birth, for example. And so a lot of what we’re doing as a technology company is, yeah, we can remote monitor things like blood pressure or we can remove monitor things like weight or blood sugars to lead to better immediate interventions. We also have to start identifying some of these social determinant issues. So, for example, if a mom does have issues with transportation, our app actually will connect her to a free rideshare service through Lyft that will allow them to go see their doctor if they have issues with healthy food or not having access to healthy food. We actually ask those questions through the app and the response is not, okay, we’re going to help you. We actually immediately connect them to a program that, for example, America Health might reimburse for. So so, you know, as we look at building technology to make a direct impact to mom’s health and into the baby’s health, we know that we can’t just focus on one or two or three clinical factors. We have to start addressing all the environmental factors that she’s surrounded by. And, you know, when you start looking at the facts in in in the U.S. and in D.C., you know, for example, black women have they’re either have or are in an environment where seven times more likely to either smoke, they are six times more likely to be overweight. They obviously do have four times more likely this to have a preterm birth. And so when you start looking at the dynamics, I mean, it’s not just one visit to a doctor that’s going to make the ultimate impact. It’s all of these things together.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:00] When you look at what you all are doing, what are some of the steps the process happens when they come to you.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:22:08] Or are you saying a patient, for example?

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:10] Yes. Yeah, A patient, Yes.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:22:12] Yeah. So? So our company is constantly evolving. So right now what happens with baby scrubs is if a patient goes and sees their doctor for the first time. Mm hmm. And it’s not all doctors right now. For example, in D.C., we only work with George Washington Medical Faculty Associates and MedStar. They’re the two largest health systems in the district. But there are a lot of other groups after these small practices, etc.. But when a patient does see one of our participating providers that are using baby scrubs don’t automatically get put on our app experience that has all this education connection, the resources. It actually in certain instances, we’ll have a bi directional chat that will help direct patients to specific resources in the community. And then if they’re at higher risk, we might give them what’s called a mommy kit that is a connected blood pressure cuff, for example, that allows us to remote monitor their blood pressure and alert the doctor if anything’s wrong. And so, yeah, like I mentioned, we work with 50 health systems across the country. And so we’re continuing to grow our footprint. But this really I think at the end of the day, patients should start to look at, okay, what tools is my provider offering to me so that I can have the best possible pregnancy outcome? And I do believe that groups like GW MedStar are first movers and really are leading the way in better treating their moms of color and obviously all moms that they serve as well.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:51] When looking at the number of maternity deaths. What is you also long term outcome to to reduce some of those numbers?

Juan Pablo Segura [00:24:01] So we have something called a moonshot. And and this might sound a little kind of Elon Musk Tesla crazy space X but but I think it’s important to have a shining star. Our goal is by 2025 to eliminate every blood pressure related maternal death in the United States of America. And I believe that we can do that as a company. And if we do that, we can reduce the maternal death rate by at least 10%, probably more like 15%. And I would mention that nobody really talks about what’s called near-misses. So obviously, we track which moms die during their maternity journey or after their maternity journey. But very few people talk about what’s called near misses, which is say a mom believes too much and almost dies. She doesn’t die, but she might have an issue that that goes far beyond the pregnancy. Let’s say a mom gets a stroke, she doesn’t die, but she gets a stroke and is severely affected for the rest of her life, you know? And so in some estimates, for example, by the CDC. Five times. We have a five times rate of near-misses. So think of 70 moms die, but 200 and and, you know, around 250 to 300 moms, you know, are severely affected negatively after their pregnancy. And a lot of those near-misses are tied to blood pressure. So so again, I want there to be zero complications tied to blood pressure in this country. I think we can do it. We obviously need more health systems, more health insurance companies that want to participate in this journey and everyone benefits. And I think that’s that’s the case that we all have to make the providers deliver better care. Patients get better care, insurance companies get less complications. Guess how much a preterm birth costs? A breach of birth cost $250,000. If we can eliminate those kinds of complications, everyone wins, especially the insurance companies as well. So that’s our shining star. Well, once we hit that one, that moonshot, well, we’ll do another moonshot and eliminate all maternal deaths. You know, I don’t know how much one company can do, but we’re going to try our best. But that’s definitely what we’re shooting.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:26:28] For before we run out of time. Juan Pablo, we’ve been talking about the physical aspects of pregnancy, but we have yet to talk about the psychological changes just brought on by pregnancy that can be exacerbated by underlying health problems.

Juan Pablo Segura [00:26:44] Oh, I mean, absolutely. I mean, something that is now getting a lot of attention is something like postpartum depression. 50% of women suffer, 40 to 50% of women suffer from a kind of a category called the Baby blues. So it’s not necessarily severe depression, but it’s a change in mood. It’s it’s not a positive experience. And then when you start looking at actual depression, you know, we will see numbers one of eight women suffer from from severe postpartum depression. So when you start looking at these numbers and the fact that we’re all you know, it’s not just, you know, number one, we have to we have to give women the care and the resources they need right now. When you look at the structure of pregnancy, women see the doctor six weeks after their postpartum visit. They get 15 minutes, 15 minutes to dissect and unpack the huge change that’s happened in their life. They now have a screaming baby at home. Their partner might be helping or not helping.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:45] Juan Pablo Segura, co-founder of the Washington, DC based Babyscripts. If you have questions, comments or suggestions about the future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America educated that org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard is over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at Kuchi that ohaji. Until we had the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing In Black America CDs, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keaton St., Austin, Texas 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.

March 5, 2020

Richard Cahan (Ep. 13, 2020)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. discusses the career of legendary photographer Ernest C. Withers with Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White: Photographs of the Civil Rights Era by Ernest C. Withers.

Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Richard Cahan [00:00:23] The pictures that he took from the 1942 to 1968. They were really documenting the movement. They were documenting the dream. And it ended with, you know, the assassination of Martin Luther King. And obviously, the movement continued. But times changed. His cameras changed him. He moved on to a 35 millimeter camera and took mostly color film. So it’s a whole nother look at, you know, there’s a there’s a beauty to this, you know, classic black and white photography. He really knew what he was doing. And and I think the pictures after that, not that they don’t have value, but they don’t have the drama. That’s why we really took the whole collection. And we said, what’s the most important message he had? And that message, I think, was kind of the the beauty of resistance, the resilience that African-Americans had during these decades.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:11] Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White photographs of the Civil Rights Era by Ernest C Withers, published by City Files Press. It was a self-made man. He was one of the most prominent African-American photographers during the civil rights years. During the course of his career. He took thousands of photographs that documented the movement from the Emmett Till trial in 1955 to the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr in 1968. What started out as a way to support his family turned into a pictorial history of life in the South and the epic events that helped shape this nation. Whether it was there for the Little Rock school battle. He was there for Medgar Evers funeral and the Memphis sanitation workers strike. He was also there to photograph weddings, high school proms and nightlife on Beale Street. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America on this week program Revolution in Black and White photographs of the civil rights era by Ernest C. Withers with author Richard Cahan In Black America.

Richard Cahan [00:02:17] That is very true. People really, you know, talk a lot in Memphis about the kind of the honor of being photographed by whites, whether it was by whether he was, in a sense, you know, came to their house when they were just photographed. And I think that that, you know, he he had a lot of self-confidence in himself. He always, you know, positioned himself right directly in front of his subjects. He certainly had the skill because he had done this for so many years, so many decades. And he made the scene, you know, he you know, an event wasn’t even an event in listeners whether he was there. So in a sense, people waited for him. There’s so many smiles in this book. They are so pleased that he’s that they’re being photographed such a different time than today when, you know, you know, when you when so many people are weary about being photographed, they don’t want to be photographed.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:07] You know, when owners see. Withers began his photographing career in his hometown of Memphis, Tennessee. He couldn’t go to the public libraries or be admitted to his best hospitals. Had it not been for his sister who gave him his first camera while he was in high school. We can only imagine what life would have been like for him, whether it is the genes behind many of the iconic photos we see today documenting the civil rights era. Besides his work with the moment he recorded on film The Everyday World in the south of African-Americans, proms, funerals, people where work and play and street life, he created a stunning record of what it was like to live in Memphis and the Mid-South. He also was a noted baseball photographer documenting Negro League Baseball. He also was a noted music photographer taking thousands of photographs of early jazz, blues, rock and roll and R&B performers. With his work is archived in the Library of Congress and is slated for the permanent collection of the Sony Institution’s National Museum of African American History and Culture. Recently In Black America spoke with Richard Cahan here regarding this amazing photojournalist.

Richard Cahan [00:04:17] They call my colleague Michael Williams and I. They call us photo historians, which is a term we never even heard before. We we were called it. We were both photojournalists and I was what’s called the picture editor. So I work with photographers and photographs. And and I learned that there’s a lot of impact that words and pictures can can have when they’re work together. And I think we’ve all learned that now, you know, try to put up a Facebook post without a picture and you’ll realize how important pictures are.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:04:46] And in your previous life, you a program officer at a foundation.

Richard Cahan [00:04:51] I was for a short time, but most of my life has been as a photojournalist. I worked for the Chicago Sun-Times for six years and I worked for newspapers most of my life. I was a journalist down at I put journalist down on my iris.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:04] I know. That’s right. So what sparked that initial interest in photojournalism?

Richard Cahan [00:05:08] Well, I actually it’s it’s a long story. But to make it very short, I, I became. I’m interested in the idea of words and pictures working together. I think I was a kid and I went to the library and I got a Jackie Kennedy book about a tour of the White House. And I realized that through pictures, you can go anywhere in the world and with words, you can explain it all. So, uh, it was exciting to me then, and it still is now, six decades later.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:37] Is your alma mater the school that beat Michigan the other day?

Richard Cahan [00:05:40] It is. It is. And it’s a school that has almost beaten several other top basketball teams. I’ll believe it when I see it.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:05:48] I have to say. How did you happen to come across Ernest Withers?

Richard Cahan [00:05:52] I was down in Memphis and a friend of mine said I had to go see the Withers museum. There’s a little museum at the end of Beale Street that’s run by Roslyn Withers, who’s the daughter of Ernest Withers, and she keeps this little photo museum open till about midnight so that people who listen to music and drink on Beale Street can kind of end up there. And as she says, people come into the museum drunk and they oftentimes leave sober because they see these photographs, which is which are really great gifts to America, of photographs of the civil rights movement and photographs of entertainers and photographs of the end of Negro League baseball that Ernest Withers took starting in the 1940s. And he continued almost up until his death in 2007.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:40] How did Ernest become interested in photography?

Richard Cahan [00:06:43] Well, he was actually it was during World War Two, and he was on the he was stationed in the Pacific Islands, and he found that if he took pictures of GI’s standing in front of bushes and holding their guns, that they loved it and they sent it back home. And he realized that there was really a business of taking pictures. And as soon as he got out of the Army in 1946, he started his own business. And and really, this is a book of somebody who was really hungry, hungry to make a living. He had eight children and he took on just about any assignment. You know, he was the that’s really one of the things that makes him unusual. He was the school photographer. He photographed proms. He was at funerals. He’d wake up every Sunday morning and go to churches and photograph churches. And and as he kept doing it decade after decade, he realized that he was really just as much of a historian as he was a photographer.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:39] I was interested in in reading that his entree prior to taking pictures of the servicemen when he went to the Pacific, he was there to photograph the construction of a runway or airport, or right?

Richard Cahan [00:07:50] Yeah, right. That was his job. He was a photographer and he was documenting things for the the Army Corps of photographers that were out there in the Pacific.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:00] Now, one would think that if you’re a photographer, you got all this elaborate equipment. But he didn’t have that.

Richard Cahan [00:08:05] He didn’t. He uh, number one, I don’t think he could afford it. And, you know, he had camera little very simple cameras. I mean, they’re not simple by today’s standards, but they were there were box cameras that I remember.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:18] I remember.

Richard Cahan [00:08:19] Yeah. That took little two and a quarter negatives. And he always talked about how he never could afford long lenses, you know, telescopic lenses. So his feet were his long lens. If he needed to get a close up, he walked up to people.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:08:31] Tell us about the story when when Joe Louis, his wife, came to his school and he was the others, do they tend to go up to take a picture?

Richard Cahan [00:08:39] Yeah, he was in he was in elementary school and he had just gotten a camera from his sister, his sister’s boyfriend, who had given him a camera. And, uh, this is Louis was at the school and he had the camera, and again, he didn’t have a telephoto lens, so he had no choice but to just walk down the aisle, go right up to the front and take a picture. And I think everybody was shocked that he had that nerve. And he loved the kind of the good feeling that it came from, you know, from being able the camera gave him kind of a an entree, you know, to anywhere he wanted to go in the world.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:09:13] Richard now, he photographed over 60 years worth of work, Right. How did you decide on what to include in this book? Is this part one?

Richard Cahan [00:09:25] You know, I don’t think so. I’ll tell you why. Because the pictures that he took from the 1940s to 1968, they were really documenting the movement. They were documenting the dream. And it ended with, you know, the assassination of Martin Luther King. And obviously the movement continued. But times changed. His cameras changed. He moved on to a 35 millimeter camera and took mostly color film. So it’s a whole nother look at, you know, there’s there’s a beauty to this, you know, classic black and white photography. He really knew what he was doing. And and I think the pictures after that, not that they don’t have value, but they don’t have the drama. That’s why we really took the whole collection. And we said, what’s the most important message he had? And that message, I think, was kind of the beauty of resistance, the resilience that African-Americans had, you know, during these decades.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:21] How did you decide on the titles of the different chapters of photographs?

Richard Cahan [00:10:25] Oh, well, there there are nine chapters, and each chapter is a is a song title of, uh, usually a popular rhythm and blues song or blues song. And, and we just had made a list of civil rights songs, and they all seemed to fit, you know, these sections of the book.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:42] Talk to us about when Ernest really got his calling to become a photojournalist when he started working for The Chicago Defender.

Richard Cahan [00:10:50] Yea so, so he started Ernest Started is really just a commercial photographer. Right. He was there’s a great story that he used to go on Sunday mornings to Negro League baseball games at Martin Stadium, and he would take pictures instead of taking pictures of the the action, he would take pictures of the crowd because everybody got dressed up. This was like Easter every Sunday morning was like Easter. And and everyone looked really good. And he’d rush home to his studio. He’d process the film, he’d make prints. His wife would drive the prints in their oven. And then he rushed back to the ballpark before the game ended so that he could sell those prints. And that, you know, I think the key to him, to Ernest, was that he was willing to take on just about any assignment. So in the early 1950s, when when Negro newspapers were really an essential part of of the community, he was getting jobs with, you know, the Tri-State Defender, the Chicago Defender, other newspapers, where he was realizing that they didn’t have a white papers. Usually they relied on the Associated Press to send pictures. And he, in a sense, became his own press service. So he would take pictures of a basketball game or a graduation. And then he would you know, there were there were several dozen, you know, Negro newspapers in those days. And he would send them to all the newspapers, and that helped him make a living.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:13] When did he first photograph Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.?

Richard Cahan [00:12:16] It was in 1950, uh, 1956. Mm hmm. It was one year after Rosa Parks refused to sit down and there was a yearlong boycott. And on the morning that they boycott in the morning that this case was settled and the boycott ended, he was on one of the first books, one of the first busses in Montgomery, and he was he literally waited for Martin Luther King and Ralph Abernathy to take a seat. About an hour or two later, as they rode the busses up front for the first time.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:12:46] How did he develop a kinship with with the movement and Dr. King?

Richard Cahan [00:12:50] You know, I think it was just that he was always there. Withers was often called the official photographer, Martin Luther King’s official photographer, and that really wasn’t true. They liked each other. But, you know, King didn’t have the money to really pay somebody. So it was really that that whenever King was in Memphis, whenever King was anywhere near Memphis, Withers was always there. He wasn’t the official photographer, but they were very close. Andrew Young, who I know you’ve had on your program many times, he talks a lot and in introduction about how important Withers work was in spreading the spreading the word. I guess it’s the visual word, you know what what it all looked like. And he was very appreciative.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:13:31] I know. That’s right. If you’re just joining us, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. and you’re listening to In Black America from KUT Radio. And we’re speaking with Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White Photographs of the Civil Rights Era by Ernest Withers. Richard, in looking at the photographs of Mr. Withers work, there seemed to be a distinction that I guess he developed over time to make his photographs of those well, that when and Withers photographs was taken, you know, it was the Withers photograph.

Richard Cahan [00:14:07] That is very true. People really, you know, talk a lot in Memphis about the kind of the honor of being photographed by Withers, whether it was by whether he was, in a sense, you know, came to their house when they were just photographed. And I think that that, you know, he he had a lot of self-confidence in himself. He always, you know, positioned himself right directly in front of his subjects. He certainly had the skill because he had done this for so many years, so many decades. And he made the scene, you know, he you know, an event wasn’t even an event unless interest Withers was there. So in a sense, people waited for him. There’s so many smiles in this book. They’re so pleased that he’s that they’re being photographed such a different time than today when, you know, you know, when you would when so many people are weary about being photographed, they don’t want to be photographed. You know.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:15:00] You’re right. Obviously, this was a dangerous job when he was out photographing the movement. How do you develop that tenaciousness?

Richard Cahan [00:15:08] Well, he likes to say that he learned a lot of it in World War Two is as a soldier. But he was very aware of it. He was roughed up a couple of times, once at the end of Medgar Evers funeral. The police just, you know, got his cameras threw him in almost like a cage. Him and a lot of other people. He was spit out a lot, he said. And, you know, he was he wasn’t a large man, but he he was he had played football in high school. He was a quarterback. So, you know, like all quarterbacks, he kind of knew where to move and he knew how to protect himself. And, you know, he he wasn’t too worried. But it took an awful lot of courage. You know, he really developed moves. Oftentimes, a white writer or journalist would come down to the south and Ernest Withers would be not only his chauffeur, but really his eyes and ears to get him through the south. And the same held true with Black for Black journalists who came down from Jet or Ebony and, you know, didn’t know the ways of the South. This is where he grew up. And he really understood a lot of the kind of the mores of of how to how to conduct yourself.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:15] I’m glad you mentioned that because I kind of skipped over. But you brought this full circle back to me when he first started taking photographs for the Black press. I’m trying to remember the newspaper he went to work for, and he was under that editor, a publisher’s tool, which for a while, right?

Richard Cahan [00:16:33] Right. Well, it was. You’re thinking of Alex. Uh, Alex. Alex. I’m thinking of Wilson. Uh.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:40] I think it was Wilson.

Richard Cahan [00:16:41] Yeah. Yeah. L Alex Wilson, right. People will know Alex Wilson because he was the very tall journalist who was punched and kicked around right at the Little Rock. And that was that. It was the night of that that was on TV that Eisenhower said he was going to send paratroopers out there. And Wilson was a big man and a really smart man. And you could tell how, you know, you know, he was just ganged up on. They they they kicked his you know, they they kicked him. They pushed his head off into the streets. And and Wilson, who was a former Marine.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:15] Refused to run. Exactly.

Richard Cahan [00:17:17] And and Withers was supposed to be there that day. And he just by assignment, he was in, uh, he was in Memphis and not in Little Rock. And he did a lot of photography of the of the Little Rock Nine. And Wilson was really the man. He was with them when King and Abernathy got on the bus in 1956. And Withers really respected him. They had a lot.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:38] About journalism from exactly their other pictorial books out there. What makes this particular book special?

Richard Cahan [00:17:45] You know, I think we use the photographs to set up history. I, I, I, I’m not a Southerner. And so a lot of this was new to me. And, and, and frankly, it was really eye opening. I and we we use photographs to tell the story of the integration of, say, the Memphis Public Library, the integration of the Memphis pools using first graders in 1961 to integrate Memphis public schools, which was pretty 13 first graders were used to to to break the color barrier. You know, you talk about the bravery of Jackie Robinson. Well, you can imagine the bravery of these first graders and their parents. Right. And and so it’s not so much a portfolio. When you open the book, you see about 250 photographs and you think it’s just going to be one of those big, beautiful portfolios. But there’s every picture let us on an adventure. And we really tracked down each picture and set it in context.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:45] Now, on the front and back inside, there is a picture of Andrew Young and then the first photograph of the book itself, there’s Andrew Young. Why those photographs?

Richard Cahan [00:18:56] Well, in it, Withers died in 2007, and in 2011, it was revealed that Withers was a paid FBI informant.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:19:04] Okay.

Richard Cahan [00:19:05] And in some ways, to some people like Dick Gregory, it made Withers a traitor. Mm hmm. But other people who knew Withers and who understood the times. It’s it’s it’s it’s much more nuanced. You know, he’s a it’s 1959. He’s a photographer in Memphis, and the FBI comes to him and says, we want pictures. How number one, how do you say no to the FBI? Right. Number two, it wasn’t clear. Yeah. At that time, a Hoover’s hatred of King and the movement was not clear in 1959. So it wasn’t like you were just switching sides. And Withers wrote in 2001 that the FBI had been following him for years. He didn’t say he was a paid informant. And he said he really tried to never get himself into, you know, controversial, secretive moments. And Andrew Young, who’s a big defender of Withers, said basically we had no secrets to hide. There was nothing to really divulge. And if Withers took photographs and told people where events were, it was okay with him.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:06] And you also write that Withers said that he may he made a habit of not being where decisions were being spoken about during his time with with the movement.

Richard Cahan [00:20:18] Exactly. He you know, Withers was a smart guy and he knew what he was doing. Now, that doesn’t take away the feelings that other people have had over the years that Withers, you know, betrayed them because they simply didn’t know what his dual role was. And I understand that on a personal level. But, you know, Withers, Withers you know, I don’t think his involvement with the FBI affects these pictures in the least and whether he should have been or shouldn’t have been. I don’t think we can really judge him because he’s not around to really stand up and defend himself. And, you know, it’s not as clear as it might seem at first.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:57] All right. You also talk about whether he had nine children.

Richard Cahan [00:21:02] Eight children.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:02] Eight children, and one was involved in an accident out in California. And Isaac Hayes did a benefit concert to bring them back to Memphis.

Richard Cahan [00:21:12] Exactly. And Isaac Hayes paid for.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:16] Tutor said he.

Richard Cahan [00:21:17] Taught me to write to head out to California and bring them back in on a special plane. You know, you I think people in Memphis understand this, but obviously, outside of Memphis, they have no idea how Withers was absolutely beloved, beloved by the entertainment community, beloved by the sports community. And and this is the guy that was. If you go on to, you know, Legacy.com and you read those comments afterwards, that’s how the book actually starts, that people write about somebody after they die. Oh, my gosh. He was just one you know, he was just always there. He was the guy that was, you know, photographing in the schools. And everyone, you know, really did love him and care about him. So it you know, there’s no question it was a shock when these revelations came out. But I think that if he was alive, he’d have a a good we would better understand what happened. You know, remember, Withers really also didn’t say no to the photo assignments. He was a photographer. This is what he did. You know, the school board wants the picture of the graduation. He says yes. You know, Jet magazine wants him to, you know, fly down or not fly down. But to drive down to Sumner, Mississippi, to photograph the Emmett Till trial in 1955. He said yes. And he ended up paying I think he got paid something like $75 for a week of work. But he just was somebody that wasn’t going to say no, because I think he loved it. He absolutely everybody he photographed, he knew he knew their uncle, their aunt, their family members. He was a really important part of this community in Memphis.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:22:48] Yeah. You also write about on the day that his dad died, he went to the funeral that day and did had an assignment later on that evening.

Richard Cahan [00:22:57] He did. He never he never shirked an assignment. His kids, who all love him and know him, but they also know that that their father’s first uh, I won’t say first love, but loyalty was work. Right. This is how, how their family survives.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:14] Now, we skipped the part that in early in his career, he did some little law enforcement.

Richard Cahan [00:23:19] Right. Right.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:23:20] And it was fired.

Richard Cahan [00:23:22] Yes. He was one of the he was one of Memphis’s first African-American patrol officers. And in those days, if you were Black, you could not arrest a white person. You could not carry a gun. And supposedly he was fired because he was bootlegging liquor. It’s hard to know, you know. You know, he says there was a jealous lieutenant. I have no idea. But, you know, he he. I’ll say this. I think that Withers was a hustler, but in the good sense of the word, he was trying to get ahead in life. And and that was just that’s that’s that’s one of the reasons why we have these photographs. The man who created a couple of million photographs because he never said no to an assignment.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:03] Also, you have pictures of Elvis Presley in there.

Richard Cahan [00:24:06] Yeah. Yeah. You know, Elvis Presley was certainly an important part of the Memphis music scene. And I think Elvis Presley made it pretty clear that he he learned a lot of his moves and a lot of his music from the African-American the Beale Street crowd. And he hung around. Oftentimes, there’s a picture of him at the Goodwill Revue, which was a radio station, his annual fundraising event in a 1956. Elvis was a big man in the white and African-American community. And there’s a picture of him just milling around with some young teenage, you know, performers. You can see them swooning for him. It’s funny. Elvis used to shop at a place called Lansky’s in Memphis, and the owner of it told Ernest that he should only photograph Elvis Presley, that that he would become a millionaire today if he had only photographed Elvis Presley. And I think he’s probably right. But who knew then? And I’m glad that Ernest Withers, you know, photographed other things because we probably have enough pictures of Elvis Presley.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:06] I know. That’s right. When you went back to Memphis to talk about Ernest, what was the reaction?

Richard Cahan [00:25:11] Oh, it was great. We had a book launch last month. And people were thrilled to finally see these pictures all put together in one place. I mentioned Ernest’s daughter, Roz. Right. She she still runs this museum. And you can see many of these pictures in the museum. But for all the people that can’t come down to the weather Collection museum, they have this chance to see, you know, a whole life devoted to photography. And and and it’s really and a lot of these pictures, Roz, and many other people have never seen before, because we got a chance to go back to the negatives and print these right from the negatives. So things that that Ernest himself probably had never seen before because he never made prints of a lot of it. You know, he was he was out getting another job.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:54] When you had an opportunity to to review some of the photos. Did you have an aha moment?

Richard Cahan [00:26:02] Oh, boy. I think I had a lot and you know, I had a lot of them. I thought the picture of that I mentioned of young Martin Luther King in 1956, sitting in the front seat with Ralph Abernathy is really an important photo. There’s another great photo of Moses Wright. Emmett Till’s great uncle. And he’s standing up in court. And I’ve read about this before. What a courageous move a Black man had never really accused, pointed at white people for a capital crime. And he stood up and he he points to the two men that were accused of the crime and Withers, who wasn’t supposed to take a picture, but he was he was in the front row holding his camera and he took a picture of of right standing up and, oh, my gosh, the this moment of bravery. And I’m so happy it was captured by somebody. And of course, it was Ernest Withers. He’s kind of like the Forest Gump, you know, no matter what happened, he was always there. And that’s that’s incredible.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:01] When looking at some of the photographs, I was particularly enamored with the one that had Dr. King arriving in Memphis.

Richard Cahan [00:27:09] Yeah.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:10] Just before. Well, it was it was the day before the assassination.

Richard Cahan [00:27:14] April 3rd, 1960, right? Yeah, It’s a it’s kind of a simple photo. But, you know, like everything else, when you look back at some photos, you you see it filled with kind of pathos. And interestingly, and this is kind of a a secret of the book, but that night, Martin Luther King gave the famous Mountaintop speech.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:36] Exactly.

Richard Cahan [00:27:36] And we looked for pictures and Ernest was not there.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:40] Richard Cahan, author of Revolution in Black and White Photographs of the Civil Rights Era, about Earnest Withers, published by City Files Press. If you have questions, comments or suggestions as your future In Black America programs, email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program and not necessarily those of the station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing to In Black America CD’s, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton, Austin, TX 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.

February 2, 2020

Dr. Timothy M. George, MD. (Ep. 9, 2020)

In Black America

By: John L. Hanson

This week on In Black America, producer and host John L. Hanson, Jr. presents an interview recorded in 2013 with the late Dr. Timothy M. George, who passed away in November 2019. Dr. George had been Medical Director of the Pediatric Neurosurgery Center of Central Texas at Dell Children’s Medical Center in Austin, Texas.

Intro Music [00:00:01] This is an archive edition of an interview with Dr. Timothy M. George. Dr. George died on November 10th, 2019. He was 59.

Announcer [00:00:15] From the University of Texas at Austin, KUT Radio, this is In Black America.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:00:22] I don’t look at myself as being this big person. I don’t think I am. You know, one great thing about going to New York, you learn you’re never the dumbest, you never the smartest, you never the ugliest but you never the prettiest either. You never the shortest, but you never the tallest. So one thing I like to say, I look at myself as being a normal person. And also I knew growing up that normal people weren’t doing the things that I’m doing today, that wasn’t in the cards. So I really wanted to be able to show that, you know, a normal person like me and nothing different anybody else can do these things. So if I can do it, you and you can do these things also. So that was really my drive to be a part of it. I don’t look at myself as being this enigma or a superstar. I think too often in the media, you know, I think Blacks are often, you know, the ones who do so well are either they seem to be special, almost like super gods, something above and beyond normal people.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:01:20] Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., medical director of the Pediatric Neurosurgery Center of Central Texas Dell Children’s Medical Center, located in Austin, Texas. In 2006, Dr. George moved to Austin from Durham, North Carolina, where he was the associate professor of neurosurgery, pediatric and neurobiology at Duke University. Joining Children’s Hospital of Austin as chief of surgery and pediatric neurosurgery center of central Texas. He brings his breadth of knowledge and expertise in pediatric neurosurgeon as he’s develop and oversee pediatric neurosurgeon programs at the hospital. Dr. George has always been fascinated with the human body and science, but he admits that it was a long time before he connected the fascination of becoming a physician with the help of his basketball coach. He was fortunate to be recruited by several universities to play basketball, but decided to attend Columbia University because others said he couldn’t get in. I’m John L. Hanson Jr. And welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week’s program, Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Dell Children’s Medical Center, In Black America.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:02:33] I grew up really in the sixties, so I have a sixties heart and mentality. So when I was applying for colleges, I always had interest in medicine. I did. I had pretty good scores on my SATs. But yeah, when I was in high school, my guidance counselor, I’m not going to mention her name, So my guidance counselor would encourage me. Well, I know you’re interested in either do one of two things, use the basketball connections to get recruited someplace, or maybe you may think about physical therapy or some allied health profession. I think I got sort of pissed off and said, No, I my goal, I think I could be a doctor. I think I can help people. I really didn’t know what it all meant to do that, but I felt I could do it. And I said, No, I’m going to go for it. So my basketball coach actually helped me out by doing two things. One, he only allowed colleges to recruit me that were really strong academically that could get me there. He you know, I would love to play for UCLA. I may not have been good enough. I don’t know, but it didn’t matter. I wasn’t gonna get recruited by them anyway because he was going to block them. But if it was Johns Hopkins or if it was Holy Cross or if it was even Wake Forest, he would allow those schools to talk to me.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:03:44] Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., has more than 22 years experience in neurological surgery. He completed his medical training at New York University. His residency in neurosurgery at Yale University School of Medicine and his pediatric fellowship at Children’s Memorial Hospital in Chicago. Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, his childhood was no different from those in the neighborhood. He believes the difference between himself today and the guys you grew up with lies not in his talent, skill, intellectual ability or sense of community, but in a direction he embraced. That direction was derived from his father. Though his father, Plummer had only an eighth grade education, he took care of his neighbors needs. He looked after the well-being of the guys who worked for him. Many times his father would work until the evening or on weekends to help provide extra money for his workers so they could provide for their own children. Dr. George developed an interest in pediatrics while still in high school work with disabled children, made him realize that there were children that had problems worse than he is. Attending Columbia University was a rite of passage. His self-worth was challenged as he went to class with students from the upper crust of society. Through it all, he learned something about himself. He had the right stuff.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:05:00] I have an old soul. I really even I was born in 1965 or a soul, probably a little older. So I was sort of really I grew up really in the sixties, so I have a sixties heart and mentality. So when I was applying for colleges, I always had interest in medicine. I did. I had pretty good scores on my PSATs and SATs and. But yeah, when I was in high school, my guidance counselor, I’m not going to mention her name, so my guidance counselor would encourage me. Well, I know you’re interested in either do one of two things, use the basketball connections, and give recruiting someplace. Or maybe you may think about physical therapy or some allied health profession. I think I got sort of pissed off and said, no, in my goal. I think I could be a doctor. I think I can help people. I really didn’t know what it all meant to do that, but I felt I could do it. And I said, no, I’m going to go for it. So my basketball coach actually helped me out by doing two things. One, he only allowed colleges to recruit me that were really strong academically that could get me there. He you know, I would love to play for UCLA. I may not have been good enough. I don’t know, but it didn’t matter. I wasn’t gonna get recruited by them anyway because he was going to block them. But if it was Johns Hopkins or if it was Holy Cross or if it was even Wake Forest, he would allow those schools to talk to me. And then after that ended up, I end up going to Columbia University ultimately. And the reason was that my guidance counselor told me, You never get into Columbia. So I had try to I’m getting pissed off and I applied anyway. My coach actually signed my letter on my recommendation letter because she wouldn’t sign it. And somehow I got in and the rest is history.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:06:43] Your guidance counselor wouldn’t sign the…

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:06:45] She just thought I would be in for a big disappointment. In over my head I just didn’t feel that way. And neither did he. And he just said, well, look, if it doesn’t work, it’s not going to work. So my attitude was not going to work, I’m okay with that. Even when I went to school, I said, well, if it doesn’t work, I’m okay with that, but I’m just going to put my best foot forward and see what happens.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:07] As you say that, you know, one would want to become a physician, but once you get to school, tell us about that process. And was there any point that you said, well, maybe I’m maybe in over my head and maybe this was not really a good decision to make?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:07:25] Yeah, but when I first went out there for the interview, my father took me up there and this was in New York City, and I grew up around the city my entire life, but it’s a totally different world. I never really experienced that world before. So as I walked on campus, I could feel it was palpable.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:07:40] Under the arch, That big arch?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:07:42] Oh, yes. And then I walked out of college, walk between the big low library up the steps, I felt, and I was entering a whole new world. My interview was amazing. I remember my interview like it was yesterday because the building, the gist of the interview was our goals are to help you teach you how to think and be a leader. And I was saying everything like, Oh, I want to do is learn how to think and be a leader. That’s what our exchange was. And it clicked. When I got there, I came in and was introduced a whole new culture of people. I mean, I never really, on a daily basis, even knew people who went to some of these elite boarding schools in the Northeast and or or whose families were worth millions and billions. And so, again, sort of reflecting back to my early days and growing up, I wasn’t afraid of that because I always zero base. I decided, oh, we’re all here. I guess we all figure out how to work together. But there were times where I felt like I knew I had to learn a lot more about them than they had to learn about me. And I had to adapt and learn how to deal with them, but still maintain who I was as a person. So I adapted to that a bit and a couple of ways. I have to admit I ended up playing basketball there, but also I also no one knew I was pre-med. I sort of kept that behind because it was such a culture of aggressiveness for the pre-med at Columbia that I didn’t want to get caught up into that little bit of a rat race where 60% of the kids were pre-med at Columbia when I was there. That was very competitive, very smart kids, and I didn’t want to get caught into that. And so I guess I dealt with it by not being caught up into the rat race part of it. But I still was there. They still saw me in organic chemistry and and people really I think it really sunk in probably in my junior year when I finally took my MCATS. They were like, You’re really pre-med. Really I am. But I always did everything about staying. I just didn’t want to get caught up into that part. I guess that’s how I coped with my own internal potential, even fear of failure. I didn’t want to put myself out there too much and maintain elements of me because it was it was a cultural awakening for me to be there.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:10:00] How did your partners treat you? Were they encouraging towards you in completing his goal?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:10:06] My friends, yeah. And oh, again, I’ve lived a blessed life. My friends have. They would not just encouraging, they would come up and hang out with me and I’d. Go out and see them sometime. And but people would really totally support me. I mean, to the point that we had a good time. I also found, you know, we did some partying at Columbia. It wasn’t just all stuff. We had a good time. I was I became a little bit of a deejay there, so I hooked up. I also was fortunate. I said, I think I’ve been looked after. So a friend of mine I used to play basketball against. We were in junior high. We competed again in the city championship in junior high, and I missed them for four years. And he shows up on Columbia’s campus, walk across college, walk. And I look at him. We nicknamed him JC because he could jump. He was five, nine could jump as we ever said, Jesus Christ. So. So we nicknamed him JC and I walked across and I look JC, what are you doing here? And I didn’t think I see anybody I ever knew. Right. And I think that was a big help for me because we just clicked and we were best you know, we were just best friends. Who’s going to Columbia undergrad? And I think that was another coping thing. So then we both clicked and the world of our friends, an extension into Brooklyn and more in the New York area just exploded. And I never felt isolated because of that, too. And we were we were just brothers ever since and this is amazing.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:11:35] Of all the specialties to select, why neurosurgery?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:11:39] Well, I’ve always really you know, I guess probably initially it was picked on. I did say what I told you. My mother told me I didn’t think about brain transplants. I did see kids who had really more neurological problems. Most of the mental and physically handicapped kids were really cause some something affecting the nervous system. And then also I just had an interest about the brain. I always wanted to understand, I guess, what made people tick, the soul. I felt the soul had to be housed somewhere up there. And so I figured one day I’d have a chance to figure out how the soul was integrated into this physical thing called a brain, but then also realized I learned scientifically over the years, you know, a little bit in high school and definitely in college about the nervous system I just really just became enamored with is its its its potential as a as a as an organ, but also a relative lack of understanding of what it did. And I thought, well, hey, this is a great growth opportunity to learn more because we don’t know everything about the brain. It’s the most complicated organ. And I felt that there was so many things to learn and everything. When I was there, when I was initially a student, everything was so new about our understanding of the brain function that I felt I was just on the edge of something new. And and it was exciting. It wasn’t just old. Information was always new. Every year, every couple of years. It was always something new about it. My great professors that instilled that way of thinking about the brain and that that’s one thing that piqued my interest on the nervous system. And neurosurgery, I think, is another thought. I really always thought that neurosurgery, because again, I was having to do a brain transplant, surgeons to do that. So I had to do it. But also, I think that as I got exposed to it, the surgical part, it was so direct. You had a chance to really make a direct effect on how the nervous system function. And I had great mentors who, you know, when I got to know some neurosurgeons later on more, and that’s medical school. They really were. We had one great one when I was in New York University. He really has such a great personality. He loved the patients. He loved the kids. He was a pediatric neurosurgeon. That was when I was there, pediatric neurosurgeon. He was a new discipline, really been around really for him for a couple of years. And and he really loved kids. He embraced them, but he was a pioneer. And and he also embraced me as a person who really allowed me to get close to it. Not just your student corner. I know you’re here. You’re one of my partners now. He would introduce me like I was one of the doctors with, and I get a chance to be with the families and kids just like him. So he really showed me what it was like. And I think that had a large impact. Clearly, what drove me to neurosurgery.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:14:21] What intrigues you the most? The process of trying to figure out what’s wrong with children, because children at that age really can’t express what they’re feeling or what’s wrong with them.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:14:34] What what intrigued me most about kids was that they just a lot of disease of nervous system are devastating to them in their lives and to their families. The thing that intrigued me most was how amazing they did in spite of the odds being against them. I felt like, wow, instead of adults who are just complaining and whining all the time, these kids embraced that. Their families rallied behind them, and I just could always rally behind that. So as far as really came down to taking care of those kids, they were amazing. Whether they had tumors of the brain, bad nerve injuries, strokes, whether they had some something congenital or something they were born with that affected them in their lives. Kids running around in wheelchairs. All their lives. Who would do a more amazing things? And I knew people who were totally, you know, totally fit physically. And yet they’ve been dealing with this their entire lives. I mean, and that gave me something to rally for and how to families embrace them and how, you know, if they saw me having a bad day today, why don’t you smile? I hear these kids devastated and then worry more about how I’m doing. Come on, I’ll hold your hand. You need to be cheered up. And later on in my life, as I became a champ, a little bit came more in practice, had kids show up. And I guess maybe they thought I was overburdened because this is a hard job and a hard life and maybe they would see me. I had kids come to my clinic or office visits with and in costumes because they wanted to cheer me up. They wanted to make sure I was having a good day. Just have fun. Never go off to see other kids. But they wanted to make sure they showed me so I would be a part of it. So when you have that spirit and that heart behind it, I rally behind it. I think I got I always say sometimes I think I get more out of it than I give to them.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:19] Were you practicing physician when you were at Duke University when you were associate professor?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:16:23] Yes. Yes, I was. That was a job I took after all my training and after the many years of, you know, medical school of college, medical school, residencies and fellowship. So you get specific training in pediatric component of neurosurgery. And then I went on and joined the faculty at Duke, where I got a chance to explore some my research interest in neurobiology. And also I was part of the obviously, Department of Surgery and neurosurgery and also pediatrics.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:16:52] And you’ve been here in Austin since 2006, and you’re the chief of pediatric neurosurgery here at Dell Children’s Medical Center.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:17:01] That’s why I got recruited here to do. And then I made the biggest mistake.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:17:05] You get a signing bonus?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:17:06] No, I said yes. And then you say yes to stuff two much. Now I have four jobs, which really you know, I came here for two reasons. One, one was to to be a part of the new hospital’s opening up and develop this pediatric neurosciences, but also really be a part of the future for how health care was being changed here with the new potential medical school. The new medical school has been talked about for years. It’s not new in concept. And when I got recruited here, that was really the forefront of discussion. And at that point in time, my career in life, even at Duke, I thought being able to come in and be a part of something new in a city as dynamic as Austin at the ground floor is just an opportunity that doesn’t exist. It really only exist in two places in the country, which was probably Austin and Pheonix, and I thought also was a better place in Pheonix to try to build it. And not just because I have something against Pheonix, but of course also had the elements that were here, had the big university here. It already had a a burgeoning, you know, hospital and health systems. It had the community which rallied behind it. They put their money into it and seeing all that and people wanted it so bad to me, it was a no brainer to be a part of that.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:18:20] Give us an idea without being too technical. Okay, You chief of pediatric neuroscience here, but you’re also a practicing physician. So obviously there’s a management part component that you oversee, but also that you are a practicing physician along with other physicians in pediatric unit.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:18:40] Yeah, but they go hand in hand. Okay. That’s a long story. So, yes, I want to be chief of something that means that your your your job is to help set policies and procedures. Okay. Okay. But I also am CEO of the Physician Corporation. So we have multiple disciplines. So not just neurosurgery, neurology, ophthalmology. I also run that, too. Okay. And I’m also one of the vice presidents in the in the health systems and also on faculty duty. So I have a lot of hands and but all they all fit together. How do you set. So the goal really is how do you set how do you set the vision and goals for really what you want to do is delivering health care. To do that, you need to develop excellence in clinical care. So I need to do that by being in on it. I need to be a part of it and take care of kids, be at the forefront at the front lines, but also be a part of saying. Then you can see, Hey, we need to change these ways. We’re doing it and make adjustments and adaptations and change the policies we need to also a component that we need to. We find those gaps and what we can do that requires, I think, more research to understand what those gaps are and investigate. Though she had to be investigative on top of that, you can’t be sustainable. Sustainability is twofold. Sustainability is partially making sure you’re financially whole. But the other part of sustainability and when it comes down to even just waste basically by not taking care of somebody, is training others to build a legacy, train them how to think, and they build a legacy that sustains itself also. So you want to educate. You want to care for kids and other patients and all patients and you need to be investigated and thought and never lose that. You need to do research across the whole dimension of what you call research. That’s what it really means.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:28] You mentioned research. So what research are you currently engaged in?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:20:32] My my my…specific areas scientifically I’m what is called a developmental molecular cell biologist.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:20:43] Okay. Speak English.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:20:44] Yes. So I want to know, like kids are developing, they’re growing. Things are being formed, put together, connected together and wired. I want to know how that happens, okay? I wanna know what causes that, Not just looking at it from at the level of a big brain, but I want to know how the cells work. I want to know what controls those cells. I need to know the molecules. The molecules thing that control those cells, whether it’s the genes or proteins or whatever it is. I want to know what controls those cells and what. And therefore, the big part of that clearly is when it goes wrong, what happens. And so that’s that’s my so I use that term of a developmental molecular cell biologist because that’s really how I think about the nervous system. I want to know how it develops. And particularly I always have a more bent toward kids. So this is wonder how it develops. I want to know what controls it and therefore when something impacts it, whether it’s a you know, something they’re born with, some thing that grows like a tumor or whether it’s where they’re injured, how that affects that, all those processes.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:21:49] If you’re just joining us, you’re listening to In Black America. I’m John L. Hanson Jr., and we’re speaking with Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. He’s the chief of pediatric neuroscience at Dell Children’s Medical Center in Austin, Texas. We mentioned earlier, when I mentioned earlier how I came in contact with you were in a book called Real Role Models by Louis Harrison, a professor over at the University of Texas. Why is it important for you to participate in that book of letting African-Americans know that there are Dr. Timothy M. George’s out there and what’s possible, what has been possible for you is also possible for them?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:22:25] Well, first, I really appreciate it. I was honored again and appreciate being in that book. The main reason why I’ve even agreed to be in the book was that I don’t look at myself as being this big person. I don’t think I’m you know, one great thing about going to New York, you learn you you never the dumbest, you never the smartest, you never the ugliest, but you never the prettiest either. You never the shortest, but you never the tallest. So one thing I like to say, I look at myself as being a normal person. And also I knew growing up that normal people weren’t doing the things that I’m doing today that wasn’t in the in the cards. So I really wanted to be able to be able to show that, hey, you know, a normal person like me, I’m nothing different than anybody else can do these things. So if I can do it, you, you and you can do these things also. So that was really my drive to be a part of it. I don’t look at myself as being this enigma or a superstar. I think too often in the media, you know, I think Blacks are often, you know, the ones who do so well are either they seem to be special, almost like super gods, something above and beyond normal people. You know, they’re either they sing too well, they don’t too high, or they seem to do something so special that nobody else can do. And that’s why they recognize so people, they respect them, they revere them, but they don’t really feel that they can really follow those paths. And I think that for me, I want to show people they can do those things. They can be CEOs of corporations, they can be a neurosurgeon, they can be a scientist, I can be a rocket scientist. I can fly to the moon. And that’s all good. And they can be a neurosurgeon. And that’s there’s nothing that’s not possible about that.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:07] On your off days, I understand now that you’re professional racecar driver.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:24:11] Yeah, I got my professional license. Well, I did say I played basketball, so I have a little competitive spark to me. But as you get older, you have starts hurting, your knees start hurting. You can’t play ball and it doesn’t work anymore. Even if your mind thinks you can do it, you just can’t do it. So I could find I did find I can fit in a race car.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:24:32] And to have that experience, it’s amazing is that you go up to 200 miles an hour. How fast have you driven.

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:24:39] Who knows? There’s no speedometers in there you go as, no, you go as fast as you need to go. I mean, I’ve gone probably got 170 and 180. I don’t know. But the the real thing. One reason why I also like, besides competitive nature of it, is that is the one thing I can do that I don’t think about anything else while I’m doing it. So there’s there’s a moment where it’s very peaceful for me. I don’t think maybe playing golf is okay, but I think I don’t even play golf because I think I think too much. I really think too much as it is on a daily basis. I need things that allow me to remove from thought so I can just focus on one thing. And and enjoy that. And it’s much more physical than anybody ever thought. Think I never thought it was as physical as it is. I mean, you really get a workout. I come out of a car even after 20 minutes, I’m drenched with sweat. And and so it’s really a blast. It’s really a blast.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:25:31] Any final comments, Dr. George?

Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D. [00:25:33] Well, this has been an amazing experience for me, so I appreciate you and all the work you’ve done. I’ve heard a lot of your interviews. So this is an extreme honor for me. I’m humbled and just sort of blown away. I think that again, I really say a person like myself, I am not special. I know tons of kids. When I was growing up, I felt were just as smart or smarter than me. I think the only thing I’ve had I’ve had a lot of blessings, but I think I also was courageous. I was where I was. I had I did have something unique and that I was courageous enough to do things to outside of my comfort zone. And and I wasn’t afraid to say if I didn’t if it didn’t work out and I failed at it, do something else. And I tried a lot of things. I wasn’t successful. And I never felt that. And I never felt at any time that my inner confidence was ever shaken from just because I wasn’t successful at something, who I failed at something. So I just encouraged people to, you know, not in a very sort of out of touch way, follow your dreams, but go after things and don’t be afraid to go after them and no matter what they are. And but it does take a special quality of confidence. It does also take a little introspection, know yourself, know your true skill sets. My skill set is not being a neurosurgeon. My skill set is loving people. My skill set is embracing kids. My skill set is being able to be lead, to lead people and to think bigger than than my little brain would want to think. Those are my skill sets. And with that, the platforms I use of neurosurgery or leading organizations or whatever that might be, or just trying to be a father and a husband, those platforms are just ways I can use those skills. So I just say, you know, I just always want to encourage people to use their inner talents and but you got to take time to find those in their talents. And they’re really to the characteristics of who you are.

John L. Hanson Jr. [00:27:36] Dr. Timothy M. George, M.D., former chief of pediatric neuroscience at Dell Children’s Medical Center, located in Austin, Texas. Dr. George died on November 10th, 2019. He was 59. If you have questions, comments or suggestions, ask your future In Black America programs. Email us at In Black America at kut.org. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. Remember to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. You can hear previous programs online at kut.org. Until we have the opportunity again for technical producer David Alvarez, I’m John L. Hanson, Jr. Thank you for joining us today. Please join us again next week.

Announcer [00:28:31] CD copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing In Black America CDs, KUT Radio, 300 West Dean Keeton St. Austin, Texas. 78712. This has been a production of KUT Radio.